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Dark Side Points?
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Chandra Mindarass
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Star Trek Reply with quote

Another thing you could use is the fear of losing a character. The dark side corrupts and lures, so everytime the player has his character do something, that you consider "wrong", get that hissy voice out and encourage him to do it more often. "You have the power to do it, why don't you?" "Failures are for the weak!" get darker with every time until he notices, where this path leads. Most players should wake up by the time the voice says "KILL HIM!!!" Twisted Evil
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The others have given many good answers here already, my 2 cents almost seem unimportant, but I will add them.

You are your players link to the Star Wars environment. You control the environment, the stting, the NPCs, and all things other than the characters themselve. Therefore, You set the difficulties, not the players. This was aid in several earlier posts, judge by the players actions. If making a roll for instinctive astrogation during any dramatic or tense moment (such as a chase or fight) then the character should definately not be able to simply decide he is calm. It's hard to remain calm with a squadron of TIEs breathing down your neck, and the combat computer blairing warnings. Now, if the player recites Jedi breathing excersises and meditation to calm himself, perhaps...

As for using Concentrate or Focus powers to blast a stormtrooper in the face, or any other part of his anatomy, that would, IMHO, definately be the darkside. Even though Stormtroopers are the badguys, the Jedi is using the force power to harm, as using it in this way can only result in injury or death. Now, using it to aim at their weapons and "shoot their guns out of their hands" would be acceptable to me, or had he set the blaster on stun first, also acceptable. After all, as the WEG rules make clear, the ends do not justify the means, using evil to fight evil is still evil. Using anger, rage, or calling on the dark side for a force point, even to acomplish a greater good, is still the dark side. It is the most insidious of the paths to the dark side, as the Jedi may feel he committed no wrong, thus further endearing him to the dark side in arrogance and unwillingness to attone.

Now, using the force to win poker games, get free drink, etc... this I have seen first hand, and really depends on the situation. Yes, it is the slowest and most sinister and debatable path to the dark side, but the destination is the same. I try to nip this in the bud the first times it happens, by giving my usual cryptic warnings ( "You feel unsettled and ill at ease with the force" or "you feel somehow sullied now", etc...) let them know where this path is headed, and if they continue to take these actions, then a Dark Side point is warrented. I am perhaps generous in that I do not just hand out DSP for such minor infractions, but I definately have in-game effects. Other force users can see some stains about the character's force (as they can see stains caused by DSP), thoughnot as prominent, but they will know the character is faltering.

The other possibility, if the character is too force dependant, you could have the force fail him when he needs it most! Of course, have a very good reason for this happening (some game occourance, environmental condition, etc...perhaps a dark jedi blocking him, adding to all his target numbers! Not all dark jedi have to be lightsaber wielding combat machines Smile ).
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Argamoth
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An idea that I've mused about is not rolling the first or second time a PC gets a DS point. I'd bet that the forces of darkness would like to lure some PCs into thinking that it's not out to get them.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very good point about turning Argamoth. There is much fan made material that supports this (GG 14, The Jedi Handbook) which recomend not having a character tunr until he reaches the full 6 DSP (dispensing with the roll entirely). This shows that the Darkside waits until the character is so entwined in it's grasp as to be unable to escape easily. I like the dramatic tension of the die roll, and in past have required rolling below the total DSP (making the first DSP almost a freebie). Recently, however, I have decided to make the roll on 2D6, meaning the character can possibly Acrue up to 12 DSP before turning.
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can certainly see not rolling on the first DSP since the rules say that each time they get a DSP you're supposed to roll 1D and if the number is less than their total number of DSPs then they turn to the dark side. How is it that their going to turn on just one DSP since all they can do rolling 1D is either tie their number of DSPs or beat it. Not rolling on their second DSP is only just barely harder to see since there is a one in six chance that they will roll something less than their total DSPs. But then as I said it's only just barely harder to see because a one in six chance of falling means that the chances of not falling are five in six. While it's only a slightly greater chance of falling on the third DSP, you've got to admit that their a much greater fear for the player that the roll could come up as a one or a two. A two out of six chance of falling and a four out of six chance of not. The odds are still in favor of not falling, but now there's a real threat of doing so compared to getting your first or second DSP. And it's also the last time the odd's are in the favor of not falling.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to make a few observations about characters who fall. While slightly off topic, I feel that perhaps my views, wisdom, and years of experience may be benificial.
The WEG rules on characters turning to the darkside are quite clear: When a character turns, hand the character sheet over to the GM, he is now a villain and no longer available to play. But what does this mean from the GM perspective. A character falling to the dark side is such a wonderful role playing option, replete with oportunity, but I often see, hear, and read about it being squandered. I think, more often than not, novice GMs immediately have the fallen character turn and attack the group as an enemy, and this is a tragic waste of great drama. I think how a character behaves when he falls is largely related to how he falls to the dark side, and how many DSP he has when he falls. At first he may simply be guilt ridden, or depressed, or struggling to find meaning, but whatever the reason, he feels he can no long see eye to eye with the rest of the characters, and so his adventure with them ends. Perhaps he just no longer agrees with their way of doing things (their to soft, to easy going, etc...) and decides to explore his own way of doing things. For whatever reason, I usually have the Once character say his goodbyes, and part the group (surely, anyone simply attacking without provocation at this point will earn a DSP of their own, and risk falling).
Now, once the character is on his own, it is time to build some back story. He begins taking more actions that are on the path to the dark side. Acting from bitterness and rage, wallowing in self pitty, etc. As he takes these steps, the dark side gets a firmer hold on him (more DSP). I often have the players encounter their one time friend during some of this, and while they don't see eye to eye, he is not outright hostile toward them yet. Often, during these chance meetings, they begin to see he is becoming more hateful, and often have to actively stop him from harming others who may have simply just said the wrong thing. Eventually, though, the DS character will grow tired of the interference of his one time friends and become hostile, or the players will become aware of some horrible action their once companion is undertaking and have to stop him. At this point is when it becomes a direct adversarial role, and confrontation becomes innevitable. The question here is, how will the players react, and how will the DSP character act? I try not to completely disregard certain aspects of the character even after he turned, and sometimes this gives the players the chance to try to redeem him (one character who fell in one of my games had his life saved by another player long before he fell to the darkside, after this he always felt he owed that character a life debt. In the final confrontation, that was the sole thing that stayed his hand from killing that player, giving that player an oportunity to try to redeem him...). I think all of these are important considerations with characters who fall to the DS.

Sorry to divert the discussion...
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Argamoth
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a neat idea. I think use that in the dark side, varying how many Ds to use, depending on how strong the dark side is at the moment.
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
The WEG rules on characters turning to the darkside are quite clear: When a character turns, hand the character sheet over to the GM, he is now a villain and no longer available to play. But what does this mean from the GM perspective. A character falling to the dark side is such a wonderful role playing option, replete with oportunity, but I often see, hear, and read about it being squandered. I think, more often than not, novice GMs immediately have the fallen character turn and attack the group as an enemy, and this is a tragic waste of great drama. I think how a character behaves when he falls is largely related to how he falls to the dark side, and how many DSP he has when he falls. At first he may simply be guilt ridden, or depressed, or struggling to find meaning, but whatever the reason, he feels he can no long see eye to eye with the rest of the characters, and so his adventure with them ends. Perhaps he just no longer agrees with their way of doing things (their to soft, to easy going, etc...) and decides to explore his own way of doing things. For whatever reason, I usually have the Once character say his goodbyes, and part the group (surely, anyone simply attacking without provocation at this point will earn a DSP of their own, and risk falling).


Actually, the rules have become that you should hand the sheet over the the GM and have the character become an NPC but if the GM is willing, you may continue to play the character and try to redeem the character. There is a whole set of rules on page 152 of the second edition, revised and expanded, concerning players playing a dark side character.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellcat wrote:

Actually, the rules have become that you should hand the sheet over the the GM and have the character become an NPC but if the GM is willing, you may continue to play the character and try to redeem the character. There is a whole set of rules on page 152 of the second edition, revised and expanded, concerning players playing a dark side character.


Hmmm, I thought that got removed from R&E. Even so, It is still just presented as an optional rule for the GM to consider. The rules still strongly suggest that the character become an NPC. The main point of the previous post was to present some better methods for GM's to handle the "Turning to an NPC" approach, as I feel that too often the opportunity is misused.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akari wrote:
I dont have the power description for Concentration handy, but as far as I remember this works only for actions that can be completed in a single round, because its not listed as a power that can be kept up... I might be wrong about this though.

I personally would never allow a player I don't know and fullly trust to play a force user anyway. This can lead to all sorts of bad things I wouldn't really want in my campaign.


Well, any repair rolls are 2 round use skills, so concentration cannot be used here. SO that is an easy fix. As to the rest.... start having other force users show up, and lecture him on his flagrent use of the force.... whether light or dark! Twisted Evil

Quote:
I guess it's also a little bit of the "I try to do the jump to hyperspace, and I concentrate on it, and I'll be calm so the roll is easy" part that bugs me.

Now if he said "I calm myself and feel the force around me, thinking of nothing but the jump to hyperspace. I close my eyes and reach for the hyperspace lever" Then it would bother me far less.


Actually, he cannot just (well imo) say he is calming himself), it depends on the situation as to whether he can be calm or not. Eg are they making a mad dash while trying to flee a squadron of ties? Or are they just taking their time.... the first, imo would NOT be calm. THe second he is..

Quote:
I'd like to make a few observations about characters who fall. While slightly off topic, I feel that perhaps my views, wisdom, and years of experience may be benificial.
The WEG rules on characters turning to the darkside are quite clear: When a character turns, hand the character sheet over to the GM, he is now a villain and no longer available to play. But what does this mean from the GM perspective. A character falling to the dark side is such a wonderful role playing option, replete with oportunity, but I often see, hear, and read about it being squandered. I think, more often than not, novice GMs immediately have the fallen character turn and attack the group as an enemy, and this is a tragic waste of great drama. I think how a character behaves when he falls is largely related to how he falls to the dark side, and how many DSP he has when he falls. At first he may simply be guilt ridden, or depressed, or struggling to find meaning, but whatever the reason, he feels he can no long see eye to eye with the rest of the characters, and so his adventure with them ends. Perhaps he just no longer agrees with their way of doing things (their to soft, to easy going, etc...) and decides to explore his own way of doing things. For whatever reason, I usually have the Once character say his goodbyes, and part the group (surely, anyone simply attacking without provocation at this point will earn a DSP of their own, and risk falling).


KageRyu, me and you see eye to eye here. When my character turned to the ds, i gave the judge a little list of possibilities for what he would do.... They actually used them. Yes i also did get him back after another group of pcs went and captured him, then turned him back (redemption)...
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Chandra Mindarass
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF the player can play a dark sider, he can keep the character, but dark siders aren't just regular villains, they will most often act like mean-spirited drug addicts! They will cause havoc just to quench their thirst for DSPs. The darker they get, the more they need, their skin will pale and their eyes will turn yellow until they are burned out creatures of the dark side.

Also, the player can't just do the smartest possible thing, as this will often mean helping people. For the dark side as well: the ends don't justify the means. You must cause suffering to sustain your warped use of the force, dark siders are psychic vampires, more often than not blind to the truth.

If you allow character to play dark siders, let the dark side punish "good" behaviour. Take away Force Points, power up difficulties or let force powers fail when the dark side is not satisfied with the character.
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