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Melee & Brawling Fire Arcs?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Melee & Brawling Fire Arcs? Reply with quote

So, I'm working on rules for Form IV, but I've hit a snag since Form IV emphasizes movement, yet there are no real rules for movement in combat in the RAW. As I was thinking of this, I was reminded of WH40K, and how models in that game were limited as to what arcs they can engage a target in close combat. I'm thinking that a similar rule might work here. I think it's reasonable to assume that a character engaged in melee or brawling combat would be at his greatest advantage if facing an opponent head on, at his greatest disadvantage if his back is to his opponent, and at middling levels of advantage if attacked from either side.

What I'm thinking is that, with Form IV's emphasis on leaping, twisting and turning in all directions, it could ignore any fire arc penalties (whatever they may be), and would be at a greater advantage when shifting around an opponent to attack them from a more vulnerable arc (ala Yoda vs. Dooku in AOTC).

Thoughts?
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Azai
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Form IV, just a random thought... Perhaps jump/acrobatic skills could be a free check and allow another free attack for the user. Hence I attack, then make a free acrobatic check (maybe against the what the user rolled for their lightsaber parry/attack) and if successful I can attack as I "jump"without any MAP.

As it seemed Form IV was about being everywhere and overwhelming your opponent. And not being where that person wants to strike, jumping and attacking from the top, behind, sides, unders... etc.

Though to put fire arcs into raw. We'd have to come up with rules on what disadvantages you have if you are attacked from behind or the side.

Is it easier for the person? Could it count as if surprised? Could it be countered, as you see many Jedi and Sith parry an attack from behind with their saber.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
For Form IV, just a random thought... Perhaps jump/acrobatic skills could be a free check and allow another free attack for the user. Hence I attack, then make a free acrobatic check (maybe against the what the user rolled for their lightsaber parry/attack) and if successful I can attack as I "jump"without any MAP.


Hmmmm. Definite possibilities. My current rules were specifically designed to be used with either the RAW lightsaber combat rules or with Dueling Blades, so incorporating multiple attacks would require two different sets of rules, one for the RAW and one for Dueling Blades (which I prefer). Perhaps a single bonus based on the result of a Climb / Jump roll at the beginning of each round...

Quote:
As it seemed Form IV was about being everywhere and overwhelming your opponent. And not being where that person wants to strike, jumping and attacking from the top, behind, sides, unders... etc.


I think that was more the Extreme Lightsaber: Yoda Edition version of Form IV. A more normal version would be the style utilized by Qui-gon and Obi-wan in TPM, which still used leaps and such, but was much more "grounded", so to speak.

Quote:
Though to put fire arcs into raw. We'd have to come up with rules on what disadvantages you have if you are attacked from behind or the side.

Is it easier for the person? Could it count as if surprised? Could it be countered, as you see many Jedi and Sith parry an attack from behind with their saber.


Not sure. I didn't really put a lot of thought into it before I abandoned the idea in favor of simple dice rules for Form IV on the Seven Forms thread. My original idea was that a character would fight normally when his opponent was "in front", at -2D if the opponent was to either side, and at -4D if his opponent was behind him. And that was as far as I got...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually rule attacks from behind gain +1d to hit, while those who are attacked from behind (IF they are not surprised) can reaction parry, but not full parry or counter attack.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno, I'm starting to get a little nervous about providing existentialism over creativity lately...

But still, I use duelling, melee and brawling combat in SWU as analogous to takamatsu ryuha kobudo and other painstaking disciplines, which go along nicely with some of the Jedi themes, but may challenge popular renditions of combat mechanics.

koshijutsu and even budo taijutsu forms of kenjutsu don't work on fire arcs and neither do they rely upon visual reflex but entirely upon visualisation techniques, strategy and prediction, and what maybe considered a luck factor of sensing the intention of your opponent in realtime.

That's how we train in the dojo. It's how Obi Wan was training Luke on the Falcon. We developed house rules based on martial arts systems, myself not being the only enthusiast in the group.

Various forms we use under the budo taijutsu elementary representation theory, where during the conflict various elemental manifestations are caused primordeally through battlefield strategies. So I will move from fu no kata to kajutsu and back to chi and gogyo setsu as a baseline theme on the specific techniques I'm using. It produces different mechanics the opponent must observe to survive this combat phase. Of course the idea is to have an opponent survive no more than two or three, you direct them between them to those ends, that's the reason behind these forms (taking authoritarian control of the conflict for application of personal responsibilities).

It doesn't look like much, two armoured kendo students rushing at each other with wood swords but trust me there's a game of chess going on and the stakes are high in the historical representations reference.

The handy thing about Japanese traditional kobudo is that having a feudal warrior aristocracy as recently as they did, only a handful of generations ago as opposed to millennia, there are still active descendants in Japan teaching these traditions pretty much the same way they were practised in the height of the samurai a few hundred years ago. You'd have to go back to the 7th century to find that in western Europe. So it's a really cool reference, I suggest browsing the Martial Arts Planet website and a few others for old school martial arts traditions based in rural Japan.
Could find some interesting inspirations...
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
The handy thing about Japanese traditional kobudo is that having a feudal warrior aristocracy as recently as they did, only a handful of generations ago as opposed to millennia, there are still active descendants in Japan teaching these traditions pretty much the same way they were practised in the height of the samurai a few hundred years ago. You'd have to go back to the 7th century to find that in western Europe.

Not to get too far off topic, but do you mean 17th century? As far as feudalism goes, in the 7th century, Britain was still heavily Romanized, IIRC. And as far as martial arts tradition, the first fencing manual printed in English was written in 1595.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I usually rule attacks from behind gain +1d to hit, while those who are attacked from behind (IF they are not surprised) can reaction parry, but not full parry or counter attack.


That seems fair. I pretty much only proposed the idea of fire arcs because I was looking for a possible fix for Form IV. Now that I've found an alternate option, I really don't need to pursue it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
I dunno, I'm starting to get a little nervous about providing existentialism over creativity lately...

But still, I use duelling, melee and brawling combat in SWU as analogous to takamatsu ryuha kobudo and other painstaking disciplines, which go along nicely with some of the Jedi themes, but may challenge popular renditions of combat mechanics.


Roleplaying games. Reality. I've never been entirely sure which one is more unrealistic.

Vanir, I can see from your perspective because it's similar to how I used to think. A lot has changed since then. It is a lot simpler to take a cinematic approach than a real one, and it is ultimately far simpler for game continuity to sacrifice a little realism for the sake of having a relatively simple rule that meshes well with the existing rules.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I7ve been working on something similar, and what I found helped was intergrating movment into the combat rolls. I also factored in for "reach".
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
I7ve been working on something similar, and what I found helped was intergrating movment into the combat rolls. I also factored in for "reach".


Details?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
I7ve been working on something similar, and what I found helped was intergrating movment into the combat rolls. I also factored in for "reach".


Details?


I could email you something. It's not complete, so I don't want to post it yet, and I've been busy on some other things recently, such as getting sidetracked when my PCs got killed last adventure.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
I dunno, I'm starting to get a little nervous about providing existentialism over creativity lately...

But still, I use duelling, melee and brawling combat in SWU as analogous to takamatsu ryuha kobudo and other painstaking disciplines, which go along nicely with some of the Jedi themes, but may challenge popular renditions of combat mechanics.


For me, things like what you propose/are on about are NOT part n parcel of regular brawl or melee. At a min it would be either (S) Martial arts, or (A) martial arts to get something like how you see it being.
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