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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I am not seeing how 'the argument could be made'... it was quoted in black and white.. not much leway. |
In the same way that we all bend and break the "official rules" as we see fit. If he wants to do away with "one power for each starting dice, plus one power for each additional pip" and make it "one power for every pip", he is certainly within his rights to do so.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Yasriia wrote: | First thanks to all replys.
My rulebook (I've seen somewhere a 2nd edition) tell me that you get 3 powers for the first dice you get (page165). So when you advance from 0d to 1d (like a starting char) you get 3 powers. And the 3 force attributes equals 9 powers total.
The background of the jedi is:
He was a youngling back in the clonewars. Being a swokes swokes he has surived order 66 with his regenerative abilities and with the help of some jedimaster. Since jedis a hunted the pc lived a normal life on his homeplanet without bothering about the force. After the destruction of Alderaan he packed his things and went on to get lightsaberparts (to repair and boost his old broken traininglightsaber). And on his journey he will meet the rest of the well developed and experienced group some weeks prior to jabbas death.
To sum it up: I have no problem to give the jedi 3 powers per force attribute since he could be trained by yoda and the rest of the group has already some experience.
In the end I think that the jedi will start with:
Concentration, accelerate healing
Life detection/sense
Lightsabercombat
Telekinesis, force push
Thanks to schnarre, bren and raven redstar, I now have a roadmap of force powers when the pc will find a jedimaster/holocron |
Absolutely! Good luck with your first Jedi! |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Yasriia wrote: | | First thanks to all replys. |
You're welcome. 
| Yasriia wrote: | | My rulebook (I've seen somewhere a 2nd edition) tell me that you get 3 powers for the first dice you get (page165). |
That's interesting. You have a different rule book than do I. Makes me curious what book you have.
(1) Page 165 of my SWRPG Second Edition (blue book with Darth Vader mask on cover) has the second page of Appendix Two Second Edition Conversion which shows the Speed Code to Move Conversion and specific ranges for Starfighter-scale and Capital-scale weapons. Nothing mentioned about the Force.
(2) Page 165 of my SWRPG Second Edition Revised and Expanded (starfield with portion of battle of Endor featuring Millenium Falcon and starfighters on the cover) has is the second page that discusses how GMs can brainstorm from the Designing Adventures chapter. Nothing there about force powers.
| Quote: | | To sum it up: I have no problem to give the jedi 3 powers per force attribute |
Neither would I. It sounds perfectly fine as part of the character background suitable for creating a character who is a little better than the base starting situation. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Yasriia wrote: | First thanks to all replys.
My rulebook (I've seen somewhere a 2nd edition) tell me that you get 3 powers for the first dice you get (page165). So when you advance from 0d to 1d (like a starting char) you get 3 powers. And the 3 force attributes equals 9 powers total.
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Interesting. It does say in the basic 2nd ed (blue book cover) you get 3 per starting D when learning...
And that is regardless of whether learning them in game or starting with them on your template (check the failed jedi).
| Quote: | | In the same way that we all bend and break the "official rules" as we see fit. If he wants to do away with "one power for each starting dice, plus one power for each additional pip" and make it "one power for every pip", he is certainly within his rights to do so. |
Then that is not making an argument for it, but flat out deciding.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Interesting. It does say in the basic 2nd ed (blue book cover) you get 3 per starting D when learning... |
So it does. Interesting.
| 2nd Edition page 146 wrote: | It takes a student tend weeks of intensive study and costs 20 character points to learn each Force skill. The character may reduce the learning time by spedning additional Character Points - each point spent reduces the time by one day (the minimum training time is one day). Once the character has completed the training, teh character gains the specific skill at 1D.
The character often gains some rudimentary abiliites, and learns three of the Jedi powers for that skill; the student can't attempt a power he hasn't learned. |
This also aligns with the Failed Jedi and Young Jedi templates found in the same book. The Failed Jedi starts with Control and Sense 1D and starts with 6 Force powers while the Young Jedi starts with Control, Sense, and Alter of 1D and starts with 9 Force powers.
Interesting I don't remember the decrease in starting powers as a rule change in 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded, but that's exactly what it is. And the 2R&E templates also reflect the rule decreasing the number of starting powers to 1 for the first 1D. The Young Jedi template - as well as the Failed Jedi, Minor Jedi, Quixotic Jedi, and Revwien Tyia Adept templates all reflect this change. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if it was done in relation to the general power drop we see in jedi. Some of the force powers do seem a little less powerful from 2e to 2e revised.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I am not seeing how 'the argument could be made'... it was quoted in black and white.. not much leway. |
In the same way that we all bend and break the "official rules" as we see fit. If he wants to do away with "one power for each starting dice, plus one power for each additional pip" and make it "one power for every pip", he is certainly within his rights to do so. |
I agree. I did the opposite: I threw out the 1 power per pip and went with one power per whole die. But the character gets two powers on his first die provided that he started the game with that die (i.e. it was one of his 18 dice). |
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Matthias777
Commodore
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1835
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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All discussions of which rules to use, I think it bears mentioning that the rules for character advancement were never supposed to be the only thing limiting a character from piling on a lot of different Force powers as they grow in their mastery of the Force. A large amount of that falls on the GM; its his or her responsibility to offer players the opportunity to continually advance their characters, but it also falls to them to keep that advancement "realistic" and balanced with story elements and the like. Not every character should or could be lucky enough to have someone as learned as Yoda for a teacher (especially in post-purge/pre-New Jedi Order campaigns). This would mean that maybe the character's teacher just plain doesn't know that skill...but now you have a reason for the PC(s) to go seek out and find someone who does, which can be helpful when coming up with adventure ideas.
Even if you do give your PCs a very skilled teacher, that doesn't mean that they have to teach their student a new power every time they advance slightly in their mastery of the Force. Say a PC has 3D in Control, 3D in Sense, and 2D in Alter, and they raise Control to 3D+1. Which sounds more realistic? "You have grown 4% more skilled in the ways of the Force, my young student. Now, it is time for you to learn how to [whatever Force power]." OR "Hmmm, you are indeed improving, my young student. You are almost ready for the next step in your training. For now, continue to discipline yourself in the ways of the Force." I love for the rules to stand on their own, but I feel that this is one area that really should be influenced by the characters involved, the setting/plot, and the actual roleplaying aspect of the game.
This is not to say that it is wrong (at all) for a GM to let a PC learn a new power every time they increase a Force skill by one pip. Just as much (more, even) as it's your call on which rules to use and which to change or just plain throw out, that's your call as a GM (and if you're not a GM, you have the right to give input as a player). All I'm suggesting is that you remember to take into consideration the characters you've created and the world you've placed them in, and make a call from there rather than just going off of the rules (even if they're your own house rules). |
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schnarre
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Yasriia wrote: | First thanks to all replys.
My rulebook (I've seen somewhere a 2nd edition) tell me that you get 3 powers for the first dice you get (page165). So when you advance from 0d to 1d (like a starting char) you get 3 powers. And the 3 force attributes equals 9 powers total.
The background of the jedi is:
He was a youngling back in the clonewars. Being a swokes swokes he has surived order 66 with his regenerative abilities and with the help of some jedimaster. Since jedis a hunted the pc lived a normal life on his homeplanet without bothering about the force. After the destruction of Alderaan he packed his things and went on to get lightsaberparts (to repair and boost his old broken traininglightsaber). And on his journey he will meet the rest of the well developed and experienced group some weeks prior to jabbas death.
To sum it up: I have no problem to give the jedi 3 powers per force attribute since he could be trained by yoda and the rest of the group has already some experience.
In the end I think that the jedi will start with:
Concentration, accelerate healing
Life detection/sense
Lightsabercombat
Telekinesis, force push
Thanks to schnarre, bren and raven redstar, I now have a roadmap of force powers when the pc will find a jedimaster/holocron |
...My Pleasure! Hope everything runs well! 8)
...As I recall, the number of powers starting off has been 1 per pip in a starting Force Die (going back to 1st Ed.). It's likely that the number was reduced, as a reflection of the Imperial purge of the Jedi.
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The man who thinks he knows everything is most annoying for those of us that do. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| schnarre wrote: | | ...As I recall, the number of powers starting off has been 1 per pip in a starting Force Die (going back to 1st Ed.). It's likely that the number was reduced, as a reflection of the Imperial purge of the Jedi. |
Well given that 1E and 2E were based on the original (post purge) trilogy as was 2ER&E, I don't we can attribute the change to the purge. I think it is an attempt at game balance to weaken starting Jedi. Which, to my mind, doesn't fix the actual problem with 2E Jedi - which is mostly their uberness at skills levels > 6D or so. What was needed to my mind was better low skill < 3D or 4D Jedi, a long middle skill period where they were good but not overpowering compared to the Hans, Landos, and Leias of the SWU, and then a period at high skill levels say 9D+ where they are uber compared to normals like what we see for Jedi Masters in the Clone Wars.
Just my .02 credits. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps combine the post of Bren's in a different thread, where there are limits to what characters can get to based on which force level they rank as with a modified "learn X powers when improving by Y pip(s)"..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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schnarre
Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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...One of the previous balance mechanics in the system was that without a teacher buying up Control, Sense or Alter took double the normal amount of CPs, & took longer in training time. Perhaps a further cost increment might be an option?!
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The man who thinks he knows everything is most annoying for those of us that do. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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OR make it so any gains when you are on your own, don't also give the free power learning as well.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Yasriia
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Right now I don't have my rulebook at hand, but if I recall correctly, you'll only gain a force power, when your teacher has knowledge of that given power. Since you don't have a teacher, you don't get a force power. But you can buy force powers for round about 5 cps. So its very expensive to increase a force attribute (double costs like schnarre said) and extra 5 cps to even get a power.
But aside from the rules. I won't give my jedi a force power he has no knowledge of. Only when he has seen a power in action by his master (teaching) or another jedi uses it (e.g. in a fight force lightning). So in the end it all depends on the gms discretion. |
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