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Imperial Army Order of Battle
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The thing is, the hoverscout isn't just a jeep with a .50 cal. It's got a heavy blaster cannon, a laser cannon and a concussion missile launcher, plus the capacity to carry six troopers. It's more like an M2 Bradley than a jeep.
It's not like a Bradley though. It's really minivan with a bunch of weapons mounted on the roof. That's why I compared it to the jeeps seen on the old TV series,
    The Rat Patrol
    In living COLOR
But if you want to envision it as a soccer mom's minivan that works for me too. Wink

Quote:
Plus, its not really fair to say that just because something is Walker scale, it is slow and lacks maneuverability.
Yes. It is. That is exactly what 2E die caps do. Starfighters have the best die cap for dodge because relative to everything they are fast. So they dodge better than the slow walker vehicles. Scale is not just size in 2E. What you are wanting is something quite different than 2E scale with die caps. To me it doesn't make any more sense that it is easier in 2E R&E for an AT-AT to dodge a character scale missile than it is for an X-wing to do so than the Hoverscout Wookiee soak problem you mentioned.

But if you want to go in a different direction with vehicle hulls you won't be alone. This seems to be one of the areas with the least consensus on the Forum. Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
It's not like a Bradley though.


In fact, it's actually much larger than a Bradley (15.9 meters long to the Bradley's 6.5, and it's reasonable to assume that the other dimensions will exhibit similar disparity). It may work just fine under the 2E die-cap system, but I prefer the simplicity of the 2R&E dice bonus system. The obvious problem there is that WEG's stats lack consistency, and everyone has their own ideas as to how accurate they are and how to fix them (and whether or not they need fixing in the first place).

You and I have gotten into some knockdown-dragouts over this stuff, and I'd like to think that my approach has somewhat mellowed as time has gone by. I'm going to stop short of saying that either one of us is right and simply state that, IMO, simpler is better in this case. Putting everything in one category makes running vehicular combat simpler by removing the scale step as a complicating factor (less dice rolls = simpler game), with the differences between vehicles decided purely by the stats. If an AT-AT is big, tough and lacks maneuverability, then give it a Body Strength of 6D w/ 0D Maneuverability (which is what it has, IIRC). If you want to make another vehicle in the same scale class be smaller, less tough and more maneuverable, then just stat it that way.

The scale system I'm already using lumps Walker-Scale and Starfighter-Scale into the same scale category, and it seems to be working relatively well, but I just can't resist a good tweak when I think of one...
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:


Quote:
Plus, its not really fair to say that just because something is Walker scale, it is slow and lacks maneuverability.
Yes. It is. That is exactly what 2E die caps do. Starfighters have the best die cap for dodge because relative to everything they are fast. So they dodge better than the slow walker vehicles. Scale is not just size in 2E. What you are wanting is something quite different than 2E scale with die caps. To me it doesn't make any more sense that it is easier in 2E R&E for an AT-AT to dodge a character scale missile than it is for an X-wing to do so than the Hoverscout Wookiee soak problem you mentioned.


Sorry Bren, but you are reading the capos wrong here. The cap for characters vs walkers of 6 is for the characters dodge, not the walkers. So the AT-ASt will be hard pressed to dodge a character scale missile (but very likely to soiak it). And yes, by the scaing rules Starfighters are terrible at dodging.

Personally, I think all of the scaling methods have problems. Size, speed, maneuverability and damage are all lumped together into scale. Fpr instance, it is hard to model a conventional airplane. if it is starfighter scale, it doesnt have much wiggle room for stat values,and it is slow and clusmy compared to a speeder. if it is speeder scale, it lacks firepower.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you take actual speed into consideration the starfighter would be rather hard to hit. Remember that 'starfighter' also covers freighters, which are rather large and easy to hit (again, with speed as a factor they shoulnt be that easy to hit).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Personally, I think all of the scaling methods have problems. Size, speed, maneuverability and damage are all lumped together into scale. Fpr instance, it is hard to model a conventional airplane. if it is starfighter scale, it doesnt have much wiggle room for stat values,and it is slow and clusmy compared to a speeder. if it is speeder scale, it lacks firepower.


The system I've been using seems to work pretty well. It lumps starfighters and most heavy combat speeders (like the hoverscout, the various repulsortanks and other similarly sized vehicles) into the same scale as walkers, leaving Speeder to all lighter vehicles. It makes things like speeders and swoops fast and maneuverable, but highly vulnerable to damage, but puts most of the big combat vehicles up where they have a hard time dodging, but can take a bigger hit (as well a dish one out).

As far as the Imperial OB, the way I'm leaning is making Armored units the domain of the heavy assault vehicles like the AT-AT and the Juggernaut, and making the Mobile units more akin to modern military units (as described in the ImpSB), with a mix of tanks, IFVs, scout vehicles and the like...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Sorry Bren, but you are reading the capos wrong here. The cap for characters vs walkers of 6 is for the characters dodge, not the walkers. So the AT-ASt will be hard pressed to dodge a character scale missile (but very likely to soiak it). And yes, by the scaing rules Starfighters are terrible at dodging.
I think, atgxtg, my esteemed colleague that if you reexamine the chart you will find that I am right and you are wrong. If you examine the scale chart for dodge the starfighter row has a 6 die cap for all scales. It does not have a reduced dodge vs any scale attack.

Walkers have a - vs character scale, a 2 vs speeder scale, a 6 vs walker scale, a 2 vs starfigher scale and a - to capital and death star scales.

And we read across the row, since it says so in the rules and in addition reading down the column would result in Death Stars having a die cap of 6 to dodge Starfighter attacks, which is silly.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no it doesn't, it says death stars can't dodge anything but capital scale and other death stars, with a die cap of 3 vs capital.

but starfighters, epitomising the mating of soldier and technology have no die cap to dodge anything, that's right.

We've always used the die cap 2e system but now use the R&E for special cases like targeting specific systems. The damage, modifed by R&E bonuses or minuses, is only to the specific system and not the structural integrity of the craft.
You have to exceed the die cap system for that.

It does translate well to real world militaries, the scale system. Destroyers are in a completely different class to battleships, in power projection and defensive capabilities such as armouring. They're just completely different animals from separate worlds in terms of sinking one by force interdiction.
You might use three attack-bombers for one and 1200 fighters, torpedo bombers and dive bombers for the other, with a battleline of warships in support.

Same with bombers versus fighters. You can get away with maybe 2-3G on a typical bomber before shearing the wings off, fighters routinely spike 11G in modern CWC BFM, they're built to sustain 7-9G and inv.2-3.

In terms of weapons, ships systems and general power capabilities it's by reactor. Analoguing SWRPG would be power cells and generators in airspeeders and starfighters, reactors in space transports and capital ships. Scaling involves all sorts of differences, space transports and larger will have shipboard computer cores. Starfighters and airspeeders will have simpler flight computers and astromech droids are tremendous benefit in high ECM or other special case environments.

Walkers are effectively getting a ground based vessel and putting a space transports style reactor, computer core, various other systems in it. Effectively a maturation of a speeder scale mobile command post, with IFV/AFV capabilities. This mating of starfighter scale and speeder scale technologies effectively create the heavy tank, MBT, or walker scale assault craft.
Like the way early MBT used aero V12 engines and even the modern tanks have turned towards turbine-engines, just like the way airplanes went from piston to jet.

My own militaria leanings lends me to believe the die capped 2e scaling system works very realistically to represent scaled damage, particularly in terms of structural damage by given energy capabilities to cause damage; and also the peripherary technologies represented by a distinctly and definitively scaled system like the die cap 2e system.

imho

I do appreciate the R&E system represents a faster, simpler rendition of scaling simply being bigger, and vulnerabilities remaining roughly the same size between scales. It's more jedi adventures cartoons sure.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
no it doesn't
Vanir, I'm not really sure whether you are disagreeing with me, atgxtg, or someone else entirely. I'm often happy to debate, but it's kind of hard to do that if I don't know who you are disagreeing with. Throw me a bone here. Wink
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vanir
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
reading down the column would result in Death Stars having a die cap of 6 to dodge Starfighter attacks, which is silly.


Very Happy

indeed it is silly, and not on my 2e CRb die cap scale chart
just a pedant, I was agreeing with everything you've been saying re: scaling systems I think.

I reckon it's a great system, the R&E one made me totally screw up my nose. One of my Players loves it and we've been fencing about the issue in game.
I think I've got him compromised on accepting the R&E scaling for attacking specific systems of a bigger scale (damage rendered to the system and not vessel structure), but to damage the structure and destroy the vessel, the die capped 2e system must be used.

It hasn't come up that much yet, but I just know when he's not running around vapourising ISD's in his Y-Wing he's going to start arguing Rolling Eyes
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
I was agreeing with everything you've been saying re: scaling systems I think.
Thanks for clarifying.

After spending some time analyzing the old chart, I decided I kind of like it better, though it is more of a pain to use than a bucket of dice.

I did create a new chart that avoided some inconsistencies in the original chart.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Imperial OOB itself my group and I had some discussion before we started the current game.

Logical consistency with canon is as always very difficult reconcile original concepts with a dystopic emphasis which many of us like, the many directions and influences of EU and finally the canon-shattering prequels.

We made a judgement call to ignore most prequel canon. No Grand Army of the Republic made of bounty hunter clones. The Clone Wars were with the Mandalorians which are warlike humanoid colonists with their own alien empire. There is more than just the Galactic Republic and a handful of outlying systems in the galaxy, it is merely one galactic civilisation among many alien ones which exist outside its borders and routinely encounter with it.

Most of the dark horse material we use as canonical preference because it explores the dystopic Star Wars galaxy which is what my group is interested in.
I go to the extent of mixing in some WH40K themes, like Palpatine's agenda is a delusional belief in preventing some greater harm to the galaxy by some unknown alien species he has forseen invading, like the Yuuzahn Vong. Palpatine is just the sort of character to be megalomanic to the extent of believing he has become omniscient and beyond mortal rationalé.


So our OOB is more along a mix of original LF concept art design and dystopic influences ranging from Dark Horse comics to George Orwell.

1. Prior to the 2nd Mandalorian Wars (Clone Wars) Palpatine, a senator from Naboo manipulates dictatorship of the Republic along Hitlerian lines as depicted in the prequels, however there is no Grand Army of the Republic full of clone troopers.
The Galactic Republic already has a standing Army, unlike in the prequels. The Jedi were never used as military solutions and always functioned at most as battlefield commanders, generally in their classical, monk like diplomatic guise.

So the Imperial OOB in the sourcebook is this, now outdated Army OOB as it stood at the height of the Galactic Republic, roughly a millennia into the past.

COMPNOR represents Palpatine's personal design to wrest military control of old Republic industry and logistical resources from the standing military, he's going to replace Army assault forces with Stormtroopers and orbital bombardment but it represents a modernisation of outdated Old Republic doctrine.

Nevertheless we have another Hitlerian theme in play that is dystopic and suits the environment. The Republic, now Imperial Army are bound by duty and legislation to serve the galactic government seat of Coruscant, yet at the same time they are subject to a coup de etat which challenges their duty by the very authorities they are bound to serve.
Organised resistance, the Rebel Alliance was a foregone conclusion, half of it would be from Palpatine's own military, probably from Imperial City itself. Wouldn't be surprised if Madine came from Coruscant.


So a much simpler OOB applies to COMPNOR, including Stormtroopers and CompForce OOB.
But the regular Army and Navy use the Imperial Sourcebook OOB.

Those were the main adjustments. I can outline the COMPNOR OOB but it's pretty straightforward line squad makeup already considered special missions companies as deployed. From there organisation is only a logistical expression, field organisation is by companies, battalions and legions (but are broken up into all the intermediary OOB for logistical purposes, just not in command structure).
What this means is field response with Stormtroopers or CompForce Assault is spectacular. Major strategic movements need to go through maybe 2 or 3 superiors before an immediate, final conclusion. Total question/answer time should be bomb the civilians: minutes.
Army could spend a week just bouncing around the implications, for one that kind of order would have to run around between about 120 HQ personnel before it goes off on two reports to GHQ and the office of the General Staff. A courier ship would be sent. No decision will be made.

In practise Army uses scapegoats frequently for battleplans that don't work out using this method, senior commanders are very skilled at avoiding responsibility and keeping junior officers down.
Stormtrooper officers are more than happy to take responsibility for battlefield atrocity, and have no reservations about ordering them in front of anyone at all.
Sort of works out like that in the difference between how you're going to use OOB to pass orders down the chain of command.

If you want Imperials to respond quickly to PC Party actions, use COMPNOR. If you want them to sustain an organised battlefield against them, use Army.
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