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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tupteq wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't do that. This may cause that game will become a theater of one actor (and few extra). Jedi Knight is above average, but if one player is above average, then why not the rest of group? His company could be: a staged smuggler, veteran scout and experienced noble negotiator (also proficient with aggressive negotiations), not a bunch of amateurs.

I'm pretty sure my players wouldn't accept such unbalanced group. The worst thing that may happen is that other players may feel useless, because 'favored' character may do all what they can, but better. Such situation has happened to me (as a player) few times and it was very frustrating. And even if your players say "ok, we don't see the problem", the truth may be different (after few sessions they may be frustrated by 'mr.diing-all-better'). And Jedi restrictions really don't change anything, in the worst case it may divide PCs to one, who does all the things except killing, and the rest doing nothing, but bad things.

Of course, it's your game and your players, maybe it will be different in your case, but I wanted to share with you my bed feelings about this (based on my experience).


I don't anticipate this being the case at all, and I've been regularly GMing (usually multiple games/campaigns) since 1981.

While I've generally been of the mindset that all PCs should be fairly balanced, I've become less convinced of this over time, and have lately been reading some persuasive comments by others of how doing so doesn't at all emulate the fictions we are simulating.

In other words, when we see Star Wars on the silver screen, there wasn't anything artificial making sure that Jar Jar had as many points in skills and attributes as Qui-Gon when they first met! Yet if this were an RPG, we as GMs would be doing what we could to either neuter Qui-Gon or boost Jar Jar.

And I don't at all agree that the Jedi code doesn't really mean anything. In our session before the last one, our smuggler-type took care of the nasty ISB spy by dropping him into a sun (he picked up a DS point for this, of course!). The Jedi wouldn't have even considered doing something like that, despite that such a move might have worked out best for the party. He plays his Jedi very heroic and noble, sticking strongly to the Jedi code and pretty much always doing what's right. Even after he used Battle Meditation and it led to the wiping out (mostly by the others) of a large group of stormtroopers, he felt really bad about it afterwards. It didn't "sit well with him", as he felt very bothered by the vicious loss of life that he's been responsible for. He's purposed (and declared a number of times) how he doesn't plan on using that power (at least like that) ever again!
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Jamfke wrote:
Fact is, the rules were written to emulate the original films. Jedi were all but gone in the galaxy, so the rules were made out to keep any Force wielding characters limited. If you intend to have a Jedi Knight as a starting character, then you must treat them differently than a normal starting character.

Jedi Knights are better than the average character in terms of skill use and their powers. They're also virtual war machines when it comes to lightsaber combat, so they will outshine the other normal characters in that area.

The thing is, if you are playing your campaign in the Prequel era, your Force users should be powerful. They should be better than the average non Force using characters, because that's the way they were. Therefore, you must give them better starting dice than a normal character to reflect this. Just because the RAW says something, it doesn't make it the end-all be-all for the game.

If all of the players are okay with the way things are handled, then there is no problem. If/when I run a game in the Prequel era, I usually give the players the same amount of starting dice because I want them to be competent from the get-go. My recent Dark Side campaign started with each character receiving 16 skill dice. Most of the players decided upon playing Force users, while a couple chose to go with regular characters. The ratio of mundane skills to Force skills was pretty even, and so far they are keeping pace with each other nicely.


Seems to me to be powermongering. Why can't the jedi wanna be start out as a padawan. Why do they have to start out as a knight to be 'cool'?


Well, a Knight is what the player wanted, and what I as the GM really wanted to see played. I've played this game for a long time, and had yet to see a Jedi played. Think about it. One of the most iconic archetypes of all-time, and one that many (most?) fanboys dream would be the coolest thing in the world, and we deny people the opportunity to play as this?

Why should players be able to play Jedi when they do cosplay or when they larp or when they play a SW video game? Why should we not allow them?

garhkal wrote:
Quote:
As I've said before, I think the many restrictions on Jedi balances things out quite a bit.


What other restrictions is going to balance out gaining 10+D? Easier gaining of DSPs? Depends on how the DM hands them out.
Hunted? Well if they are already starting out AS knights, being 'hunted' is obviously not on their minds.


The restrictions as shown in canon are quite extensive. No personal relationships, must always do what's right, can't get too attached to others, no unnecessary harm or violence to others, etc., etc. The other players can do all sorts of things the Jedi can not. They are by far (by a magnitude of at least ten, IMHO) more restricted with their behaviors.

garhkal wrote:
Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't do that. This may cause that game will become a theater of one actor (and few extra). Jedi Knight is above average, but if one player is above average, then why not the rest of group? His company could be: a staged smuggler, veteran scout and experienced noble negotiator (also proficient with aggressive negotiations), not a bunch of amateurs.


Exactly? Why should only the jedi get to be 'above normal, akin to those we see in the films;? Why not have the fighter jock, play someone akin to wedge (squadron leader), or a general/admiral??

Quote:
Perhaps the other players should receive some extra dice in skills as well. There's nothing wrong with "beefing up" the others to make them a little better than an average starting character. Especially if they are trying to hang with the Jedi Knight. Give them the same number of starting dice with a cap on how many they can spend per skill, like instead of the traditional 2D per skill, take it up to 4D, or 5D per skill. This will get you some characters that are able to have skills that matter. That way you can avoid the "theater of one" that Tupteq mentions.


Then it becomes an 'arms race'. You boost jedi to be more "Like what we see in the films (even though by the original trilogy, only 4 force users existed, and 3 were dead by the end of the third film), making your non force users feel left out.
you then have to boost them up, and again the jedi pcs will be feeling like they are no longer special...


We have done exactly what you've suggested. For about the last six years we've played an annual event (with a really good GM) where we all play "stars" like this. I play a leader of an entire fleet (the equal of Ackbar), a number of players play hotshot pilots (easily the equal of Luke and Wedge), another plays a Jedi, yet another a famous noble, others powerful other characters. We've had a blast with this, and it's drawn as many as a dozen players! There's never been the slightest hint of anybody worrying about somebody else having better stats then them. We all immerse in the world of Star Wars, have a blast, and enjoy fantastic stories together. It's as much "Star Wars" as any other time I've played the RPG.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about this last night and something occurred to me about character creation that opens the door to much more abuse than giving Jedi Force skills over and above their starting 18D.

A player decides to play a woolies. He puts 6D in Strength. RAW allows up to 2D to be placed in bbeginning skills. He chooses Brawling. Now, his brawling skill is 8D. Then, he allocates 1D into specializations and chooses Nightingale martial arts. This brings his brawling roll to 9D. But, against anyone who does NOT have the Noghri specialization, he gets to roll an additional +2D. So now, your beginning woolies rolls 11D brawling to start, AND it only costs him 5 CPs to raise the specialization. And lets not forget the wookiee rage on top of all this.

All of this is possible within the RAW.

But even a more "realistic" scenario allows non Force users to begin with several skills at the 6D or even 7D range. A starting Jedi, under RAW, is lucky to get a single skill higher than 5D, and if he does, it comes at the coat of being pitifully inept at everything else he does. Giving free Force dice at 1D is, IMO, not at all unbalancing because 1D in Force skills might as well be 0D. Its that useless. The first 9 CPs are spent bringing Force skills up to a useable level, but anything below 4D is unreliable at best. It takes 54 CPs to get all three Force skills to 4D, and that's assuming the Jedi raises no other skills. So his other skills haven't even passed the 5D range, while the non Force sensitives are already reaching 7D to 8D with their primary skills.

If that works in a campaign for the group, so be it. Me? I'd rather nerf LSC and then comp by bringing a starting Jedi up to a playable level.


Last edited by Naaman on Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My stupid auto correct on the phone put the word "nightengale" instead of "noghri ".
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Jamfke
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well DougRed4, it seems that you should just allow the player to create the Jedi as you've suggested. If the other players are already up to snuff, and they don't have a problem with him coming in as a Jedi Knight, then go for it!
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Jamfke. So far it's looking like they'll be cool with it. The way we had it, it resulted in exactly what Naaman was just saying. I'm thinking that our next session will be the first with a Jedi who actually plays like a Jedi, rather than a Jedi who is the weakest member of the group! Smile
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Jedi Skyler
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that the biggest problems everyone here has with this concept is A) the Jedi overpowering the rest of the party, and B) the other players feeling left out by it.

It also seems the biggest single cure for this is, as a GM, knowing your players. I personally am in several games that Jamfke runs, and a number of others he has run, but are on hiatus (yeah, Jam, still chomping at the bit to get Cal out of mothballs...lol), and I have to say, each and every one of the players we have has been exemplary at running their characters as though they (the players) were completely immersed in the Star Wars universe.

It is ultimately the GM's job to guide the game. If a player wants to run a character the GM really has no desire to preside over, it's the GM's job to be honest, and to be fair about it. No reason to be a douche about telling a player 'no.'

I've also played Jedi (mostly aspiring, that is) who have started out with the regular dice, and who have started out with more than normal dice. Now I will say that whenever I have had more dice to play with, so have the other players, which I see as fair.

One of the big things I had to raise an eyebrow to was the complaint about all the characters being somewhat bad@$$. So you have to throw legions of stormtroopers at them, or beef up the villains. Many players want to start out a character from the very beginning of their careers, and make an investment in them that lasts for years, or even decades if they're lucky. That's fine, and admirable. But there are still those of us who want to be able to kick some serious butt, and do it in the style of the movies. I see nothing wrong with that, and applaud the GM who makes it happen. I especially love the group that draws a dozen people for their yearly game where EVERYONE is a bad@$$ in their own field. Wish I could bring my first Jedi character to THAT game.
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Quetzacotl
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@garkhal
Simple reason. Because, with the current generation system of characters, the Jedi is always subpar to the other characters.
Instead of 6, he has up to 9 Attributes to raise. And the other 3 Attributes (the force skills) are completely useless unless they are on a level of about 3D or more.

So if a Jedi Character receives the same amount of starting D than the other non force-using characters, then that character will be FAR weaker then them, also the lore says something completely different.
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Quetzacotl
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A way to help out starting Jedi would be to make the force skills derived skills a character creation only.

So, Control, for example, would be a derived stat of (STR + KNO)/2. Sense might be (PER + KNO)/2. Alter might be (DEX + KNO)/2.
So at character creation, the Jedi char can't put any Attribute and Skill Dice into the Force powers, but they automatically have a derived value based on the other attributes.
IMHO this fits much more to the SW lore then what we have right now.

Of course, those derivations are just an example. I put KNO in every stat because in my opinion Jedi have to be knowledeable and it's their knowledge about the force that let's them use it.
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Leon The Lion
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't get into the discussion on why we should allow players to have effective, non-gimped Jedi characters, cause that's being handled quite well by others.

I can't say much about beginning characters, cause I've never run a game with such.

For my game, I've house-rules the Force, and character creation as a whole, quite a lot. Most importantly, I do not do character creation with dice. I do it with Character Points. I've made Force skills just that - skills. They do not cost the same as attributes at character creation. There are also only two Force skills, not three. Lightsaber Combat is heavily re-worked into Force Combat - the bonus it grants is much smaller, but applies to all fighting, not only lightsabers. Force powers do not come free with dice/pips in the Force skills - the character may learn as many as he wants, but he must pay CPs for all of them. And some other twaeks.

Game's been going on for about four years now, and I never felt the Jedi was in any way overpowering. There are some things she is better at, sure. Thre are some others at which she's not very useful at all. Everybody gets to shine in their own way.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:

In other words, when we see Star Wars on the silver screen, there wasn't anything artificial making sure that Jar Jar had as many points in skills and attributes as Qui-Gon when they first met! Yet if this were an RPG, we as GMs would be doing what we could to either neuter Qui-Gon or boost Jar Jar.


But can you really see Jar Jar being a character on the same level as Qui-gon? Not to me, he was a minor player more akin to an npc following the main characters, which in stats wise for the RPG would mean he would have had 12d in attributes.

Quote:
Well, a Knight is what the player wanted, and what I as the GM really wanted to see played. I've played this game for a long time, and had yet to see a Jedi played. Think about it. One of the most iconic archetypes of all-time, and one that many (most?) fanboys dream would be the coolest thing in the world, and we deny people the opportunity to play as this?


Then by that logic, anyone wanting to play a smuggler should be able to start AS han (stats wise). Its like in adnd, someone wanting to play someone akin to legolas, or merlin. those are high level characters, and NOT what you start out as, but what you work towards.
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with those who think a Jedi should not get more starting skills than other character types. But I do have an alternative suggestion for you to consider.

Increase the number of starting skill dice, but place a limit on the number of dice that may be allocated to any one skill. If you've ever played Mutants and Masterminds, think of it as the dichotomy between power points and power level. In other words, depending on how powerful you want your characters to start, maybe give them 14 or 21 starting dice for skills, but only allow a maximum of 3 to be placed in any one skill. What this does is give the Jedi enough skill dice to max out his starting force powers, as well as a handful of other vitals like Lightsaber, Dodge, Pilot, or whatever.

Meanwhile, the other characters will likely still have their normal combat skills maxed with the starting 3D, as usual, but can use the rest of their dice that they don't use on force skills to diversify in other areas.

For example, a Jedi might spend her beginning 21D on Control 3D, Sense 3D, Alter 3D, Lightsaber 3D, Dodge 3D, Willpower 3D, Stamina 3D. This puts her force powers each at 4D and the other skills at somewhere in the 5D-6D range to start.

Meanwhile, a Trooper might spend his beginning 21D on Blaster 3D, Dodge 3D, Brawling Parry 3D, Brawling 3D, Grenade 3D, Tactics 3D, and Blaster Repair 3D. Again, combat powers are at starting max, but the trooper spends his extras on some non-combat options rather than force skills. This leaves him with these skills probably in the 6D-7D range.

What will likely be a 1D gap between the Jedi's and Trooper's primary combat skills in this scenario does not nearly balance out the extra options the Jedi has available with even 4D (I'd consider 4D low "knight" range, personally) in force skills. This way, everybody can be good at fighting, the Jedi get their starting force powers at reasonable levels, and the non-Jedi don't get screwed out of starting skills just because they're non-Jedi.

I think the way to approach this is to figure out at what level you want your Jedi's force powers to start. If 4D works, then you know you want a starting max of +3D in any one skill. Next, figure out the "must have" other skills so you feel the Jedi is not gimped. Let's say that is just Lightsaber and Dodge. Take the total number of skills you feel are necessary (5 here . . . 3 force skills and 2 regular) times the starting max (in this case, 3). So here you'd set your starting skill dice at 15D with a single skill max of 3D. Letting the non-Jedi buy up other options like Search and Persuasion will never outshine the Jedi's Farseeing and Affect Mind.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it just boils down to what is fun to play and what is not. A starting character is fun to play. Unless its a Jedi. Then its just a grind of gathering up CPs until the Jedi reaches the level of a starting character.... AND THEN the game picks up. I'd rather skip the "motions" and just jump right into play. I like beginning characters RAW. In my opinion the "perfect" solution would be to start the character with no Force skills but guarantee him a teacher (at least to get the Force skills at 1D so he can grow on his own from there). Then he gets all 18D and can fall back on his mundane skills while spending his first 50 or so CPs developing the basics of his Force skills and still have some skills at 6D or so to get through the adventure.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my favored way too.. but i have had some sessions in the past, where rather than the base 18d attrib/7d skills, where we started out wih 10d, or even 15d *3d max on any one skill* before..
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever done stats on Luke as he was before leaving Tatooine with Ben? That might be as good a set of beginning stats for any player wanting to start out a Jedi. He had good Mech skills, pretty good Barter and Negotiation ( dealing with Jawa traders), desert survival, tracking, and piloting.

It was after leaving Tatooine that he started learning force skills at all and those were probably in the padawan levels.
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