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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
shootingwomprats wrote:
The only use I could possibly see in an adventure would be optional rules.

Uh, how about the plot? Or at least plot/encounter ideas? I think adventures have the highest possibility of something useful to D6 because its main purpose is not to present rules we won't use. I view adventure plots themselves as beyond game mechanics and modular. I would think that writers of published RPG adventures write them just as we do. You come up with the story and -insert stats here and here-. As Cheshire said, there may be a need to introduce a few new rules here and there, but for the most part you are using rules from other products to run an adventure.

IIRC, the current adventure book is a quest for a lost Separatist treasure ship. That idea holds potential for Rebel or other campaigns. I'm actually looking more forward to the next adventure coming out which will take place on Cloud City.

Oh, and there is the aforementioned art. I'm a huge Mike Vilardi fan, but overall WEG art was very inconsistent. Some of it (not Mike Vilardi) was just plain horrible. So far, I would have to give the award for most consistently good overall artwork to FFG out of the three SW games. That is at least the one thing FFG has done well so far.


I love Mike Vilardi, too, but other than him you're right. In fact, this is probably the biggest factor why I didn't pick up WEG products when they first came out. I was both a huge fan of Star Wars and RPGs, but I couldn't stomach much of the art when I first saw stuff for this game.

Whill wrote:
And you wouldn't have to shell out so much money for an adventure book if they were paperback like they should be.


I would be interested in subscribing to your newsletter. Wink
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Nico_Davout
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
cheshire wrote:
I haven't gotten the errata for EotE yet, but I'm probably going to do that... once I replace the hard drive all my EotE stuff was on.

The errata does not seem minor at all. Be advised that the official FAQ/errata document available for download is anything but definitive. It does not have all the known errata. There is a long list of additional errata posted on the forum. Sure, some of them are only typos but not all. And there are multiple threads with rules clarifications form the lead designer of the game. The "oppressively crunchy" core book seems to be extremely confusing for the gamers, and I've been able to gather that a lot of these are former d20 gamers, which you would think should be able to digest the crunch easily.

From reading the FFG forums I've come away somewhat depressed. My basic assumption about this 3rd SW RPG was that it had to be better than d20 because d20 is so horrible. But it seems this new game may not be any better than d20, and it may even be harder to convert to D6. Not only that, FFG SW still has some thinly-disguised d20-esque mechanics. Classes are now called Careers. Feats are now called Talents. Skills are career skills or non-career skills for each career. It's just sad. The overall game system design/publication schedule/marketing strategy seems very similar to WotC. An extremely structured character design system with finite options is doled out in very small doses, with every new release providing new class specializations and feats. The more variety you want, the more you have to buy.

R&E has everything you need. No classes with mandatory specializations and assigned career/specialization-based talent trees, just a bunch of templates with no game mechanical categories. You want more character templates? There are simple rules to make your own game-balanced character types. Just allocate 18 attribute dice and come up with a background. In D6 there are no career abilities and talents. Everything you do is simply governed by skills, and there are no non-career skills. Grow your character anyway you want. I just don't understand how Star Wars gamers could feel the need for anything else. D6 is flexible enough that you could easily add narrative dice or whatever new game aspect flavor you like from FFG game.

And one more thing before I end my grognard rant. I do love my RPG core books and sourcebooks being quality, full-color hardbacks. But do we really need that for adventures? Something that will not be opened and closed nearly as much because it would only get used a few times in any one gaming group? Even if still in color, all adventures should be paperbacks. Hardback adventure books are just another way to really cha-ching us.

All that being said, the new Hired Guns class sourcebook became available at a low enough price for me to order it from Amazon. That and the Beyond The Rim adventure book are now on the way to me. Confused


You exaggerate. The official errata is minor and missing dots has really little to do with the actual system. Clarification is only necessary for whiners who can't play otherway than as written. The problem is that rules can never cover all "real" situations. Did you forget the golden d6 rule? Smile The EotE system is narrative system and rules are to be used with common sense and as appropriate, this is what designers often say. If you don't like something, ignore it. I do this with every system I play because none is perfect for any GM. Those who complain are mostly those who would argue about every stupid thing in order to have their character have +1 in something or on something. I dislike such players, RPG is not about this, it is about the story.

D20 gamers will complain about everything, after all here you roll more than one dice and there are symbols. I do not expect them to be literate with more than numbers from 1 to 20. If someone feels offended, I don't care.

I have completely different feeling about FFG forum. Great number of ppl playing the system and being happy with it,. That means it is great, and that is also mine feeling. Yesterday I ran WH using EotE, went great. ME to be played in some future. Also one guy did conversion for western setting, could work perfectly for Deadlands.

With the colorful books you wont help. I think they make it this way to make it harder to scan and "pirate". I still have nostalgia for white-black WEG books, just bought WH1 edition rulebook and it looks so great. Unfortunately no company is going to step back and return to such rulebooks. I see the same trend with rulebooks for boardgames. It is also a nice excuse to ask for more money for my pocket. Unfortunately.

I hope Hired Guns will be better than EtU, which was disappointing IMO. Suns of Fortune was good, a lot of info and nice short-adventures. Beyond the Rim was acceptable, but nothing great. Funny, the short adventure from GM kit is IMO more interesting Beyond the Rim, but is also only an opinion.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The errata does not seem minor at all. Be advised that the official FAQ/errata document available for download is anything but definitive. It does not have all the known errata. There is a long list of additional errata posted on the forum. Sure, some of them are only typos but not all. And there are multiple threads with rules clarifications form the lead designer of the game. The "oppressively crunchy" core book seems to be extremely confusing for the gamers, and I've been able to gather that a lot of these are former d20 gamers, which you would think should be able to digest the crunch easily.

...And one more thing before I end my grognard rant. I do love my RPG core books and sourcebooks being quality, full-color hardbacks. But do we really need that for adventures? Something that will not be opened and closed nearly as much because it would only get used a few times in any one gaming group? Even if still in color, all adventures should be paperbacks. Hardback adventure books are just another way to really cha-ching us.

All that being said, the new Hired Guns class sourcebook became available at a low enough price for me to order it from Amazon. That and the Beyond The Rim adventure book are now on the way to me. Confused

Nico_Davout wrote:
You exaggerate. The official errata is minor and missing dots has really little to do with the actual system. Clarification is only necessary for whiners who can't play otherway than as written. The problem is that rules can never cover all "real" situations. Did you forget the golden d6 rule? Smile The EotE system is narrative system and rules are to be used with common sense and as appropriate, this is what designers often say. If you don't like something, ignore it. I do this with every system I play because none is perfect for any GM. Those who complain are mostly those who would argue about every stupid thing in order to have their character have +1 in something or on something. I dislike such players, RPG is not about this, it is about the story.
...
I have completely different feeling about FFG forum. Great number of ppl playing the system and being happy with it,. That means it is great, and that is also mine feeling.

Nico, thank you for sharing your valuable perspective and providing balance to this discussion. I appreciate your input as you have actually played the game. However "exaggerate" implies intentional misrepresentation, and I would not appreciate that accusation. I tried to be very careful with my wording. I used the word "seem" and "seems" where appropriate. I accept that your experience with the FFG SW forum is different then mine, because I believe that you have read much more if it than I have. I went to go find errata/FAQ and found pages and pages of discussion which I started to read until I became overwhelmed and had to stop. I haven't even read the FFG games rules in depth, so if I had a better grasp of the FFG system perhaps that would put the limited number of FFG forum threads I had looked at into a different perspective. I most certainly have not forgotten D6's golden rule but I don't even know a lot about the basic rules of FFG's game. I admit that. And I take your word that there are many other threads that are not bogged down by confused gamers. I haven't read those so I wouldn't know.

Nico_Davout wrote:
With the colorful books you wont help. I think they make it this way to make it harder to scan and "pirate". I still have nostalgia for white-black WEG books, just bought WH1 edition rulebook and it looks so great. Unfortunately no company is going to step back and return to such rulebooks. I see the same trend with rulebooks for boardgames. It is also a nice excuse to ask for more money for my pocket. Unfortunately.

I don't have any issue with full color art. I love high quality full-color RPG books! And I have already stated that FFG wins for SW RPG artwork. My only stated issue regarding pricing was that the adventure books were hardbacks. I don't have any problem with the core books and sourcebooks being hardback, and I prefer that. Just the adventure books should be paperbacks. They could still be full color paperbacks.

Nico_Davout wrote:
D20 gamers will complain about everything, after all here you roll more than one dice and there are symbols. I do not expect them to be literate with more than numbers from 1 to 20. If someone feels offended, I don't care.

This is a D6 game's forum, and I personally am not offended by your d20 gamer comments. This reminds me of an experience I had. One time I explained that basics of D6 to a D&D 3/3.5 player who hadn't ever been a GM and hardly ever even played any other games but D&D. Only being a player, she just rolls the dice the DM tells her too and she provides the result. Because in D6 you roll multiple and variable numbers of dice, she felt it sounded confusing. And these are dice with no symbols, only numbers.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, I am sorry, I used the wrong word then, I did not want to accuse you of intentional misrepresentation. I am not a native speaker and sometimes these subtleties still escape me. Can't find a better word now, so let's stick with 'exaggerate', but without any negative subtext Smile.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, everything I've seen (reading numerous threads over on rpg.net, for instance) suggests that players are really enjoying and loving the new game.

And everything I've seen from them does look quite beautiful. I agree that they should do paperback for adventures, though (even if they were color, and still with gorgeous painted art).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nico_Davout wrote:
Whill, I am sorry, I used the wrong word then, I did not want to accuse you of intentional misrepresentation. I am not a native speaker and sometimes these subtleties still escape me. Can't find a better word now, so let's stick with 'exaggerate', but without any negative subtext Smile.


That's okay. I'm a native speaker and the subtleties also allude me.

Wait... subtleties or subtitles? I get those mixed up.

j/k
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Panzerjedi
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nico_Davout wrote:
D20 gamers will complain about everything, after all here you roll more than one dice and there are symbols. I do not expect them to be literate with more than numbers from 1 to 20. If someone feels offended, I don't care.


I'll call BS on the Bullcrapper for that I know plenty who and don't........ and if you're offended I don't care... D20 is not my system but neither is this new game either...... insulting others does little to convert them to your cause.... but 'eh..... I've seen a lot of hidebound, judgemental folks......

P.S. I DO know D20 gamers who DO come here for ideas and such..... Insulting them, and not all are like what whill described, by far not all, doesn't help us find D6 or FFG system players. at all.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, guys, let's not escalate this.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Cheshire. This has gotten out of hand.

Whill wrote:
The errata does not seem minor at all. Be advised that the official FAQ/errata document available for download is anything but definitive. It does not have all the known errata. There is a long list of additional errata posted on the forum. Sure, some of them are only typos but not all. And there are multiple threads with rules clarifications form the lead designer of the game. The "oppressively crunchy" core book seems to be extremely confusing for the gamers, and I've been able to gather that a lot of these are former d20 gamers, which you would think should be able to digest the crunch easily... I went to go find errata/FAQ and found pages and pages of discussion which I started to read until I became overwhelmed and had to stop. I haven't even read the FFG games rules in depth, so if I had a better grasp of the FFG system perhaps that would put the limited number of FFG forum threads I had looked at into a different perspective... I take your word that there are many other threads that are not bogged down by confused gamers. I haven't read those so I wouldn't know... This reminds me of an experience I had. One time I explained that basics of D6 to a D&D 3/3.5 player who hadn't ever been a GM and hardly ever even played any other games but D&D. Only being a player, she just rolls the dice the DM tells her too and she provides the result. Because in D6 you roll multiple and variable numbers of dice, she felt it sounded confusing.


Panzerjedi wrote:
Nico_Davout wrote:
D20 gamers will complain about everything, after all here you roll more than one dice and there are symbols. I do not expect them to be literate with more than numbers from 1 to 20. If someone feels offended, I don't care.

D20 is not my system but neither is this new game either...... insulting others does little to convert them to your cause.... but 'eh..... I've seen a lot of hidebound, judgemental folks......

P.S. I DO know D20 gamers who DO come here for ideas and such..... Insulting them, and not all are like what whill described, by far not all, doesn't help us find D6 or FFG system players. at all.


I regret my part in the discussion that has opened things up to go in this direction, but in no way was I generalizing about players of d20 or FFG, or even criticizing any gamers at all. I went to the FFG forum and primarily read errata and rules clarification threads. Fact: Those particular threads were full of confused players. I described my experience with no judgments about any gamers. Yes, I expressed my personal surprise that so many former d20 gamers would be so confused by crunch, because FFG is also a crunchy game like d20 is. Perhaps I was wrong, but I thought gamers played d20 because they like crunch. I did not go any further by suggesting that former d20 players of FFG must illiterate for not dealing with the FFG crunch, or anything of the nature. I was making the observation that if there are pages and pages of confused players the system must be confusing, but when Nico stated there are many threads not like that, I took his word for it and reinforced that my experiences on the FFG forum were based on reading a limited number and type of threads. Regarding my experience I shared about describing the D6 system to someone who had mainly only played D&D, I was very clear this was a single experience with a single d20 player, and I only stated the experience with no personal commentary.

I'm sorry if my points weren't more clear, but I have only ever been taking about the game systems. Fact: For better or worse, d20 and FFG SW are both more crunchy than D6. Opinion: Others might but I personally don't like oppressively crunchy games. Fact: SW RPGs are based primarily on a film franchise. Opinion: D6 seems to be the most cinematic game system, and I personally like cinematic qualities in games. Fact: I personally don't understand why any SW gamers would need anything other than D6, but that does not mean I am casting any judgments on them for playing other games. My own lack of ability to understand the appeal of these other SW games is only a statement about myself being one person with one set of experiences. I'm not saying there is no appeal to other games. To each, his own. I'm saying, I don't get it and I'm so very glad we still have SW D6.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panzerjedi wrote:
I'll call BS on the Bullcrapper for that I know plenty who and don't........ and if you're offended I don't care... D20 is not my system but neither is this new game either...... insulting others does little to convert them to your cause.... but 'eh..... I've seen a lot of hidebound, judgemental folks......

P.S. I DO know D20 gamers who DO come here for ideas and such..... Insulting them, and not all are like what whill described, by far not all, doesn't help us find D6 or FFG system players. at all.


You right. I wanted to sound it "funny", but it was a poor insult only. Sorry d20 guys.

Whill wrote:
I personally don't understand why any SW gamers would need anything other than D6


Well personally I don't understand why any SW gamer would need anything more than FFG! Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do know emotions can be hard to convey in text. some times folks take things literally. Just fair warning. It SOUNDED berusque to me... so I said something about it... no worries...... Smile All is well.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thanks, Cheshire. This has gotten out of hand.



Panzerjedi wrote:
Nico_Davout wrote:
D20 gamers will complain about everything, after all here you roll more than one dice and there are symbols. I do not expect them to be literate with more than numbers from 1 to 20. If someone feels offended, I don't care.

D20 is not my system but neither is this new game either...... insulting others does little to convert them to your cause.... but 'eh..... I've seen a lot of hidebound, judgemental folks......

P.S. I DO know D20 gamers who DO come here for ideas and such..... Insulting them, and not all are like what whill described, by far not all, doesn't help us find D6 or FFG system players. at all.


I regret my part in the discussion that has opened things up to go in this direction, but in no way was I generalizing about players of d20 or FFG, or even criticizing any gamers at all. I went to the FFG forum and primarily read errata and rules clarification threads. Fact: Those particular threads were full of confused players. I described my experience with no judgments about any gamers. Yes, I expressed my personal surprise that so many former d20 gamers would be so confused by crunch, because FFG is also a crunchy game like d20 is. Perhaps I was wrong, but I thought gamers played d20 because they like crunch. I did not go any further by suggesting that former d20 players of FFG must illiterate for not dealing with the FFG crunch, or anything of the nature. I was making the observation that if there are pages and pages of confused players the system must be confusing, but when Nico stated there are many threads not like that, I took his word for it and reinforced that my experiences on the FFG forum were based on reading a limited number and type of threads. Regarding my experience I shared about describing the D6 system to someone who had mainly only played D&D, I was very clear this was a single experience with a single d20 player, and I only stated the experience with no personal commentary.

I'm sorry if my points weren't more clear, but I have only ever been taking about the game systems. Fact: For better or worse, d20 and FFG SW are both more crunchy than D6. Opinion: Others might but I personally don't like oppressively crunchy games. Fact: SW RPGs are based primarily on a film franchise. Opinion: D6 seems to be the most cinematic game system, and I personally like cinematic qualities in games. Fact: I personally don't understand why any SW gamers would need anything other than D6, but that does not mean I am casting any judgments on them for playing other games. My own lack of ability to understand the appeal of these other SW games is only a statement about myself being one person with one set of experiences. I'm not saying there is no appeal to other games. To each, his own. I'm saying, I don't get it and I'm so very glad we still have SW D6.


Its ok, Not saying you were generalizing, just that not all D20 players are like that so its not really fair to generalize if you do.... Wink Personally I Love SW D6 and its my favorite system... but I do enjoy the other two later versions of Star wars, though not as much as D6, yes they are more are a bit more crunchy, though saga is not as bad as earlier D20 editions.. I know a person who plays the FFE version, the Saga version, and D6 verion as readily... he prefers the Saga versions, but comes here for stuff to convert because there are many good ideas here.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nico_Davout wrote:
Well personally I don't understand why any SW gamer would need anything more than FFG! Wink

We're fortunate to have your FFG-educated view here in this thread, but FYI, the Rancor Pit is still a SW D6 forum in case you forgot. Wink

Panzerjedi wrote:
Whill wrote:
I'm not saying there is no appeal to other games. To each, his own.

Its ok, Not saying you were generalizing, just that not all D20 players are like that so its not really fair to generalize if you do.... Wink

Obviously I don't negatively generalize d20 players in any significant way. When I went to the FFG forums, I clearly expressed that my expectation for d20 players was just the opposite of the experience I shared about the single d20 player I talked to who seemed confused by the very basic concept of D6. I expected the former d20 players on the FFG forum to handle the FFG's crunch with no problem. I was surprised by the many cases I came across of confusion, because crunch equals complication so I thought d20 players should be able to handle it with ease. My expectations for them in general where what I would qualify as positive characteristics: intelligent and possessing an attention to detail. HOWEVER, my experience on the FFG forum did not undo my expectation because I still didn't generalize. And Nico said there any many other threads I didn't read that don't have FFG players expressing confusion, and I have no reason not to believe that.

I'm a fairly intelligent person, but I've played d20 and I admit I find it very difficult. D6 is easier. Many d20 gamers must have a special gamer quality that I don't have. Truth be told, I do like my D6 a tad bit crunchier than WEG RAW in some ways, and I have taken a few queues from both WotC and FFG for my SW D6 game, but I just can't handle any game system being a lot more crunchier than D6. Maybe I could if I really had to, but I don't have to because I am happy with D6. It's been my favorite RPG game system since 1987.

Panzerjedi wrote:
saga is not as bad as earlier D20 editions.. I know a person who plays the FFE version, the Saga version, and D6 verion as readily... he prefers the Saga versions, but comes here for stuff to convert because there are many good ideas here.

I agree that Saga was the pinnacle of WotC's RPG. I have 4 d20 OE books, most of the Revised line and the entire Saga game line except the GM screen and the Galaxy Tiles. I appreciate the efforts they made to simplify the game, but it's still too d20 for my taste. IMO, levels, classes/careers and feats/talents have no place in SW gaming.

But again, to each his own.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
<snip> IMO, levels, classes/careers and feats/talents have no place in SW gaming.


THIS right here on SO many levels. While I thought it would be great at first, the more I saw the class/level paradigm in Star Wars the less sense it made. I've come to see that many of the characters cannot be pigeon-holed into a strict class/career in those games, both d20 and FFG. Now I know d20 has multi-classing, and I could go into how much that system is broken (as in does not work, not overpowered per se), but I won't bore anyone with the mathematics, design imbalance, and how Ivory Tower design that forms the basis of d20 is flawed. I will just say that, yes you can multi-class (still doesn't work for Yoda or any "high-level" Jedi type) to make a character like Leia, Chewie, or Han, but you will have an unplayable character towards the higher level spectrums.

As for the d20'ers not getting some of the crunch in FFG Whill, it could be because it's a different sort of crunch. The drive of the rules in FFG is different than it is in d20, so that may create a lot of the confusion you experienced.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthOmega wrote:
Whill wrote:
<snip> IMO, levels, classes/careers and feats/talents have no place in SW gaming.


THIS right here on SO many levels. While I thought it would be great at first, the more I saw the class/level paradigm in Star Wars the less sense it made. I've come to see that many of the characters cannot be pigeon-holed into a strict class/career in those games, both d20 and FFG. Now I know d20 has multi-classing, and I could go into how much that system is broken (as in does not work, not overpowered per se), but I won't bore anyone with the mathematics, design imbalance, and how Ivory Tower design that forms the basis of d20 is flawed. I will just say that, yes you can multi-class (still doesn't work for Yoda or any "high-level" Jedi type) to make a character like Leia, Chewie, or Han, but you will have an unplayable character towards the higher level spectrums.

As for the d20'ers not getting some of the crunch in FFG Whill, it could be because it's a different sort of crunch. The drive of the rules in FFG is different than it is in d20, so that may create a lot of the confusion you experienced.


well its all in what you want in a system... I do indeed prefer the d6 system, and I agree with the confusion issues... new systems have always taken me a bit to get used to before comfortable with it..... even d6 did.. at first.... as for the dnd thing...... I'm still a fan of the very modifiable 2nd edition dungeons and dragons to get my fantasy setting kicks.... but that is a tangent... so will stop there.

Some times older IS better, some times it is NOT..... that also depends on the individual using the system in question..... there are those who very much prefer the old RCR over D6 or Saga or the new FFG system.... or any vice versa 'tween those........ some are happy with their system and are sticking with it, others move to the latest... it boils down to personal preference in the end.
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