| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
shootingwomprats
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 2686
Location: Online
|
 Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Because he is special? Perhaps he purchased or earned the suit? Maybe it was given to him from his Alliance intelligence handler? Maybe it made sense based on his background and story?
R&E p.22, Starting Equipment, "List reasonable starting equipment for that character. The Gamemaster has final say over what's "reasonable," striking off any equipment, or assigning disadvantages (such as owing money to a crime lord for a ship, or a character's equipment is stolen and the original owner is trying to get it back.) The gamemaster isn't even required to tell you about disadvantages if the character wouldn't know about them."
There are literally hundreds of ways to explain and justify it. I honestly don't understand your issue with the character. If you want to punch holes in it, fine, do so, but use the R&E and cite the rule along with what you disagree with. Do not quote SPARKS rules to me as I do not use them.
I have looked at the write-up for the Shadowsuit and I am starting to wonder if it really fits. I mean it does for the character, but its rarity ... Wait! I got it, call it a Sneaksuit, drop the modifier to 1D and its all good. Give him a pair of Snooper Goggles and he is done.
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I may have confused sparks rules with main book ones in regards to the (A) skill issue, but where did i say anything Sparks related for the gear?
My issue is the amt of credits this gear is costing that a starting pc has.
YES a rebel pilot gets a ship, but are you honestly thinking he owns it? Or is it rebel property that he is assigned to.
As to the shadow suit and other gear, my issue there is that a shadowsuit is something issued when requested (Not available for sale by rules of engangement) or gotten at a high price on the black market (and with only 4d in streetwise i don't really see you having the skill level needed to get there, though that is My opinion, as the availability code is only listed as a 3, no letter). Dropping it down to a regular consealment cloak or camo poncho (+1d) is ok as those are easier to get, and even have a cost with them.
Next up is the armor. It has better energy protection than physical, something practically all the other existing armor types don't have, AND that it's consealable under regular clothing! Smacks of someone who is borderline muchkining things there.
You wanted comments it seemed, and i gave mine. If i was a DM and you tried bringing in something like this into my game (not sparks), i would toss it out lickity split.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shootingwomprats
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 2686
Location: Online
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
You have yet to cite any rules infractions. In fact as far as I can see, per RAW this is a perfectly legal character. Your only real issue seems to be it does not conform to SPARKS.
DimSim holographic projector (GG11, p.85)
Note: This was on the template for a slicer (Heroes and Rogues, p.84). 5,000 credits.
Cumulus-U500 DataPad (MU: 10; universal port adapter, Scomp port adapter)
Note: grants no bonuses. Universal adapters make sense (R&E p.226), 100 credits + 30 credits for adapters.
Electronic Lockpicking Kit
Note: grants no bonuses, only the tools required to open or bypass the lock. Essentially this is the Security Kit found in the Equipment book by Thiago, p.116 and was converted from SWD20 p.143, 750 credits and grants a +1D modifier.
Blaster Pistol (4D)
Note: Not every template, but the vast majority start with a blaster pistol, R&E p.229-231, 500 credits.
Sneaksuit (Adds +1D to sneak)
Note: This is similar to the camouflage poncho, but is form fitting and only grants a +1D sneak, not the additional +2D at 35m or more, Arms & Equipment Guide p.45, 250 credits, double it as its custom, 500 credits.
Raven Nightvision Goggles (+2D search in low light environments)
Note: Same as Snooper Goggles, Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p.90, 300 credits. Also note the +2D in low light is not that big a deal as all Perception skill checks are at -1D, -2D or -4D for darkness, R&E p.93. So all it does is negate the modifiers not give additional bonuses.
BlasTech Survivor 1000 Concealment Vest
Note: This was an item found here at d6holocron and it appears to have no citation for it, so it may not even be an official item. Though it only offers protection to the body. 2-3 on 1d6, so it is only effective 1:3 of the time, R&E p.96.
I don't know, as a GM, I might allow it if it made sense to the character background and the player could justify it to me. The price is steep at 8,000 credits. Though, the DimSim (5,000 credits) could be traded away making the difference only 3,000 credits. Not all that bad really.
1,000 credits
Note: Not all characters start with credits but again most do.
_________________
Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | YES a rebel pilot gets a ship, but are you honestly thinking he owns it? Or is it rebel property that he is assigned to. |
Where does it say that it isn't his? The description of the Smuggler specifies that he has the ship and a debt to a loan shark, so that shows WEG could have included restrictions on ownership if they want, but in the case of the fighter pilot and the privateer captain, they didn't. The point you are trying to dodge is that characters have variable equipment based on their purpose and background; some will have more, some will have less. And I fail to see what is so objectionable about a piece of equipment that only gives a 1D bonus to Sneak.
| Quote: | | As to the shadow suit and other gear, my issue there is that a shadowsuit is something issued when requested (Not available for sale by rules of engangement) |
Actually, rather than listing it as NAFS, RoE just doesn't list a price, which is not the same thing. There is a big difference between a character requisitioning equipment from a quartermaster in the military and a character making a private purchase. And more importantly, you are talking about two different pieces of equipment; the shadowsuit from RoE and the sneaksuit from the D6 conversion of the D20 Arms and Equipment Guide.
| Quote: | | Next up is the armor. It has better energy protection than physical, something practically all the other existing armor types don't have, AND that it's consealable under regular clothing! Smacks of someone who is borderline muchkining things there. |
Please reference the rulebook page stating that armor must provide better protection against physical damage than energy. The vest could just as easily be composed of overlapping layers of gel packs that dissipate energy, with a flexibility that allows it to be worn under street clothes, at the expense of protection from physical attacks.
And +1D vs. Energy, +1 vs. Physical = munchkin? Really?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shootingwomprats wrote: | | You have yet to cite any rules infractions. In fact as far as I can see, per RAW this is a perfectly legal character. |
I concur. At this point, g, all of your objections seem to be based on personal gaming preferences, not any particular restrictions laid down by WEG.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shootingwomprats wrote: | You have yet to cite any rules infractions. In fact as far as I can see, per RAW this is a perfectly legal character. Your only real issue seems to be it does not conform to SPARKS.
|
And as i said to C, my issue (the whole Sparks confusion) was i was getting OUR GROUP's rules for advanced skills mixed up with RAW, since as C did state, strongholds and hideouts does have some additional (A) skills that are not like the RAW (R&E book's) requiring a min of 5d for their pre-reqs.
| Quote: | | Actually, rather than listing it as NAFS, RoE just doesn't list a price, which is not the same thing. There is a big difference between a character requisitioning equipment from a quartermaster in the military and a character making a private purchase. And more importantly, you are talking about two different pieces of equipment; the shadowsuit from RoE and the sneaksuit from the D6 conversion of the D20 Arms and Equipment Guide. |
For the poncho yes no cost is listed. But the shadow suit does have not for sale listed. If you wish i can cut n paste the write up.
| Quote: | | Please reference the rulebook page stating that armor must provide better protection against physical damage than energy. The vest could just as easily be composed of overlapping layers of gel packs that dissipate energy, with a flexibility that allows it to be worn under street clothes, at the expense of protection from physical attacks. |
And i will toss it back to you. Looking in the Equipment PDF there are only 2 canon pieces of armor i can find (canon in that they existed in a WEG book, gundarks) in the barbel microbe vest and the corondexx vest, that have a better energy to physical ratio.
As for my munchkin statement it was directed at the part of it easily being worn under regular clothing. None of the other armors, vests especially i see state that.
As far as the rules infraction aspect, it has been my experience in 20+ years of gaming, that when someone resorts to saying "Show me in writing where it explicitly says i can't do XYZ" they are gaming the system, which is imo what a munchkin does.
Anyway, i am signing out of this thread for good, and it has almost gotten to the point C, that if this site had a "Ignore user" feature, i would be using it to ignore your posts.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | For the poncho yes no cost is listed. But the shadow suit does have not for sale listed. If you wish i can cut n paste the write up. |
No need; I double-checked, and you are correct that it is listed as Not For Sale. However, there are some potential loopholes. The description states that the Shadowsuits are hand-made and individually fitted to the wearer, and since this is specifically described as the Alliance Infiltrator Shadowsuit, it is reasonable that the Alliance will not be mass producing them for sale. However, unless the Alliance has a lock on the galaxy's entire supply of shadow silk and the weavers and tailors who know how to make the suit, an item this useful will also be available for private sale or use by Imperial personnel as well. The only unknowns would be the price and availability on the open market outside the Alliance.
But we digress. As I mentioned above, the suit listed as part of the character's equipment is not, in fact, the shadow suit, but is, instead, the sneaksuit. The sneaksuit seems to be SWR's invention, based on the Camoflauge Poncho listed on page 45 of the WOTC Arms & Equipment Guide. It has different stats and different abilities (+1D instead of +2D to Sneak), so any attempt to critique it should be based on it, not the shadowsuit.
| Quote: | And i will toss it back to you. Looking in the Equipment PDF there are only 2 canon pieces of armor i can find (canon in that they existed in a WEG book, gundarks) in the barbel microbe vest and the corondexx vest, that have a better energy to physical ratio.
As for my munchkin statement it was directed at the part of it easily being worn under regular clothing. None of the other armors, vests especially i see state that. |
And yet we have armor vests here and now that can be worn concealed under clothing. Vest material is under development that is as flexible as cloth yet hardens to steel in an instant when it detects an impact. I see no reason why a vest that provides minimal protection and can be concealed (at the expense of reduced protection against physical damage) should be considered "munchkin". It's not like SWR is trying to give this guy a full suit of Mandalorian Battle Armor that can be concealed under street clothes; it's just a light-weight armor vest that happens to be designed specifically to resist energy damage. The vest isn't even SWR's invention; it's something that he found on the Holocron.
Looking strictly at the bonuses provided by the equipment, only one of them has a bonus above 1D (and it is situation specific), none of the bonuses overlap and all of the gear is appropriate for the kinds of missions the character would perform. In a universe where characters can start with major starships, I just don't see how this even comes close to being munchkin material.
| Quote: | | As far as the rules infraction aspect, it has been my experience in 20+ years of gaming, that when someone resorts to saying "Show me in writing where it explicitly says i can't do XYZ" they are gaming the system, which is imo what a munchkin does. |
I'm not talking about limitations of the rule system; I'm talking about limiting your imagination strictly to what is seen in the official material. To say "well, under the RAW, no other vests can be concealable, therefore it's not possible" is to deliberately and unfairly restrict possibilities in a galaxy that is filled with them. When I say "show me where it says you can't", I'm asking you to point to the place where WEG specifically said that "all armor vests must have better protection against physical damage than energy damage, and must be so bulky that they can't be concealed under clothing." I'm pretty sure that passage doesn't exist.
| Quote: | | Anyway, i am signing out of this thread for good, and it has almost gotten to the point C, that if this site had a "Ignore user" feature, i would be using it to ignore your posts. |
Talk to Loc Taal; I'm sure he can arrange something if enough people ask.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Its true hide outs and strongholds breaks the R&E rulebook's listing for needing 5d in a prereq. But even there the singular skill prereq'ed (A) skills are at least a min of 4d. Which is something i never understood. Why would the main book go over (A) skills needing a 5d in their prereq if another book comes out and lowers that? |
Makes sense to me. If your (A) skill crosses disciplines, it stands to reason that you may not need to be so specialized in those disciplines to start training in the (A) skill itself. I certainly would expect someone with professional-level (4D) programming and security skills to be able to slice.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
