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Hyfigh
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Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: Skills and Attributes |
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I'm thinking about separating Skills from Attributes in hopes of making a slightly more dynamic system. This means skills would start at 1D. Starting investment requires 3CP to "unlock" the skill. If a skill hasn't been "unlocked" any check would default to an Attribute. This also means that Skills aren't pigeon holed into functioning with only a single Attribute. There are times when finesse is better than brute force, for example.
My logic behind this is that it always seemed strange that someones natural ability functionally slowed the progression of skill. I can't seem to correlate this to the real world (I know... Hyfigh, it's fantasy so the real world blah, blah, blah...). From my perspective, someone with natural ability only goes so far without actual practice. That natural ability assists in performance, but does not dictate actual raw skill level.
To compensate, I would simply further slow Character Point assignment to my players.
Anyone see anything wrong with something like this? |
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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Skills and Attributes |
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Wouldn't defaulting to an attribute actually be an improvement over taking skills early on?
Doesn't defaulting to an attribute when the goal is | Hyfigh wrote: | | that Skills aren't pigeon holed into functioning with only a single Attribute. |
exactly pigeon-holing the skills to an attribute?
If you're looking at a system where skills are based on multiple attributes, you might want to consider stat minimums for skill acquisition. D&D did this in 3/3.5 with feats having a minimum attribute number to take it, and it might make a certain kind of sense under some circumstances. If, for example, taking athletics requires both DEX and STR, make it a minimum of 5D combined to take the skill. |
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Hyfigh
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Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I follow you first question... Will you rephrase it, please?
I did mention that a Skill check would "default to an Attribute", so no, it wouldn't pigeon-hole Skills at all. The "finesse vs brute strength" comment is still fully applicable in that the player and GM could agree that Y Attribute is suitable in lieu of X Attribute for the purpose of the particular check.
The D&D feat requirements is an idea, but sounds significantly more complex. Currently the system is simple and already exists in a relative "Skill+Attribute" mechanic. The issue I'm having is that the Skill builds immediately off of an Attribute. I don't like that it takes longer for a character to advance a Skill just because their Attribute is higher. This means that I'm still looking to maintain the mechanic of "Skill+Attribute" while restructuring Skill advancement.
Here's an example of my reasoning:
I am not naturally gifted when it comes to holding steady, therefore I'm at a disadvantage learning to shoot guns. We'll say you, however, have a very steady hand. While we put in the same amount of training, you will maintain that natural advantage. Our actual skill level is the same... You're just arbitrarily better because of said steady hand. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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This has been a quibble of mine, as well.
The simplest solution I can come up with is to charge 1cp per D of the total skill minus the attribute itself, so that to raise any skill 1 pip to 2D over the attribute would cost 1 cp per pip.
Then, to raise it from 2D to 3D costs 2cp per pip, etc. Same principle as in normal play, but the attribute itself doesn't count toward the skill when calculating cp costs.
I also see value in using different attributes, but I'm not really sure this warrants a whole new system:there are many skills that uave no conceivable means of crossing attributes and only a few that I can think of that this might affect (brawling and melee skills mainly) while sneak might cross over into dex from time to time... and maybe a few others. |
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JironGhrad
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 Jan 2016
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyfigh wrote: | | I'm not sure I follow you first question... Will you rephrase it, please? |
By reducing skills to 1D when purchased, untrained skills will default to attribute die codes instead (such as 2D+1 Dex), correct?
In that scenario, a character would actually be better waiting and banking CP until they can (assuming it's allowed) buy their skills at a higher die code than the attribute, resulting in characters who may not buy any skills at all for a while because 1D isn't sufficient to pass a real skill check (unless a player has a die that often comes up a 6, thereby allowing a reroll- assuming that in a 1D scenario, it's a wild die). |
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Hyfigh
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Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Then, to raise it from 2D to 3D costs 2cp per pip, etc. Same principle as in normal play, but the attribute itself doesn't count toward the skill when calculating cp costs. |
This is just about exactly what I'm referring to.
| Quote: | | I also see value in using different attributes, but I'm not really sure this warrants a whole new system:there are many skills that uave no conceivable means of crossing attributes and only a few that I can think of that this might affect (brawling and melee skills mainly) while sneak might cross over into Dex from time to time... and maybe a few others. |
Agreed that it doesn't necessarily mean a new system. The Skills would still probably be listed under the normal represented Attribute. The Skill, being that it would be a Skill score alone, could easily be applied to an alternative Attribute when the GM and player deem it appropriate. This is not to say that would be applicable all of the time - i.e.: a player could not decide to permanently move X Skill under Y Attribute (sans further houseruling, of course).
| Quote: | | By reducing skills to 1D when purchased, untrained skills will default to attribute die codes instead (such as 2D+1 Dex), correct? |
That is functionally correct. The GM and player could, however, determine that the Skill being used, in the way it is being used, could run on another Attribute. Thank you for rephrasing - apparently, English was acting as a second language for me there... This means that skills would still carry the characters Attribute. |
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Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Skills and Attributes |
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| Hyfigh wrote: | I'm thinking about separating Skills from Attributes in hopes of making a slightly more dynamic system. This means skills would start at 1D. Starting investment requires 3CP to "unlock" the skill. If a skill hasn't been "unlocked" any check would default to an Attribute.
...
Anyone see anything wrong with something like this? |
In my game skills start at 0D+1 when they first get 'unlocked' for 1CP.
Another CP brings it to 0D+2 and a third brings it to 1D.
So, like you, I have 3CP to get a new skill to 1D, but with the restriction of only allowing 1 pip improvement per game session it takes a couple more games to get that first die.
When rolling a skill, a player adds the associated attribute rating as a +1 per die, ignoring pips of the attribute.
Example:
STR 3D+1
Brawl skill: 4D
The character would roll 4D with a +3 added to the result from the STR.
When a character doesn't have the skill, or it's significantly inferior to the attribute, the character can default to the attribute, but takes 1/2 of the result.
Example:
STR 3D+1 with no brawl skill.
The character tries to punch someone. Rolls 3D6 +1. The roll result: 14.
The result is divided in half, rounded down if necessary to give a result of 7.
As a result it's more advantageous to get the skill than to default, because you get the whole die roll and get to add the attribute as a bonus.
For me, this is just the right balance between natural ability/talent versus training and experience.
A character with a high attribute still gets a benefit by being able to half-decently default skills, but more importantly they get the significant pip bonus to skill rolls.
I've recently started handling specializations a bit differently as well.
Rather than spend 1/2 CP cost (round up) to improve a specialized skill, I have the players spend the full CP cost but raise the skill twice.
Example:
A character who is specialized in Blaster: Pistol has a skill rating of 4D.
Under standard specialization rules it would cost 2CP to raise to 4D+1.
Under the new system it would cost 4CP to immediately bump it up to 4D+2. |
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Hyfigh
Ensign
Joined: 27 Nov 2012
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Dredwulf60... I think you just won this thread for me. That system is simple, follows in line for what I was looking for, and seems incredibly effective. Kudo's!  |
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