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Is there a write-up of Teras Kasi?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Is there a write-up of Teras Kasi? Reply with quote

I wish to have an NPC be adept in it, and I want to know if anyone has developed a coherent and elegant set of rules for it!

It is actually spelled Teräs Käsi. <-- hyperlink
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a super easy write-up of it:

Student of Teräs Käsi
CHARACATER gets +1D to his or her Willpower when resisting Affect mind and/or all other mental attacks of the Jedi and the Sith. Additionally, when CHARACTER faces such an opponent in battle, CHARACTER receives a +1D bonus to his or her Brawling skill against them.


And then there would obviously be three levels:

Student (+1D to Brawling, +1D to Willpower vs. Jedi mind tricks)
Champion (+2D to Brawling, +2D to Willpower vs. Jedi mind tricks)
Master (+3D to Brawling, immune to Jedi mind tricks)


And rules on how to get them:

- To become a Student of Teräs Käsi costs 50 CP and six months of training with either one Master, one Champion, or two Students.
- To become a Champion of Teräs Käsi costs 75 CP and the character must train for six months with either one Master or two Champions.
- To become a Master of Teräs Käsi costs 100 CP and the character must train for either six months with two Masters or one year with one Master.

(I really didn't want to delve into the specific attacks, though maybe another interested party will down the road.)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what our Sparks group goes by..
Quote:
D. Teräs Käsi Martial Arts
This Martial Art form is a specialization under the Brawling skill that does not utilize techniques, but does have a special ability. Up to half of the skill dice can be removed from the attack to hit roll and are then added to the damage for the attack. On a round that this ability is used, no other non-Teräs Käsi attack actions or reactions can be used (multiple Teräs Käsi attacks can be declared, but the multiple action penalty subtracts from both the attack pool and the damage pool of dice).

Even though this is a specialization under Brawling it still has the basic skill character point cost to improve (not half price rounded up as per other specializations).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
This is what our Sparks group goes by..
Quote:
D. Teräs Käsi Martial Arts
This Martial Art form is a specialization under the Brawling skill that does not utilize techniques, but does have a special ability. Up to half of the skill dice can be removed from the attack to hit roll and are then added to the damage for the attack. On a round that this ability is used, no other non-Teräs Käsi attack actions or reactions can be used (multiple Teräs Käsi attacks can be declared, but the multiple action penalty subtracts from both the attack pool and the damage pool of dice).

Even though this is a specialization under Brawling it still has the basic skill character point cost to improve (not half price rounded up as per other specializations).

Thanks for the feedback, and I like your conversion. I like this part the most:

garhkal wrote:
This Martial Art form is a specialization under the Brawling skill that does not utilize techniques, but does have a special ability. Up to half of the skill dice can be removed from the attack to hit roll and are then added to the damage for the attack.

How does your group handle the fact that Teräs Käsi is supposed to grant its followers either high resistance to or complete immunity from Jedi/Sith mental attacks (e.g. Affect mind, Control Mind, Drain Life Essence, Dim Other's Senses, Sense Force Potential, etc. None of these are house-ruled either, so there may be more in certain SWU's that use lots of house-ruled Force powers.) Complicating things even further is the fact that some Force abilities listed above have no "resist" roll. This necessitates clearer wording for the rule element stemming from this information:

Wookieepedia wrote:
In addition, Teräs Käsi taught non-Force-sensitives how to close their minds to Jedi and Sith, thus protecting themselves from mental attacks.

What this means in game terms is that this ability needs to be worded very carefully. Here are a few examples of how I would do it:

"CHARACTER is immune to Jedi/Sith mental attacks that do not require Willpower to resist, though if such an attack has a "to resist" roll of Willpower, CHARACTER gets +xD to that roll."

It could also just be worded "If CHARACTER has at least x dice in his or her Brawling: Teräs Käsi, he or she is immune to mental attacks of the Jedi and Sith."

Another (admittedly weird) way to write it would be: "If CHARACTER is to be affected by a Jedi/Sith mental attack, roll 1D (see below for result rules).

- For a result of 1-3, a Student of Teräs Käsi completely resists the attack.
- For a result of 1-5, a Champion of Teräs Käsi completely resists the attack.
- For any result at all, a Master of Teräs Käsi completely resists the attack.


Moving on:

Though I understand the logic behind it, my personal opinion is that I will not make improving the Brawling: Teräs Käsi skill cost the same CP as a full skill. It just adds too much text for me—this is a thing which I shy away from since I have the tendency to overcomplicate things unless I watch my personal conversions/house rules very closely. Anyway, even if the price is half a full skill (like normal specializations), it will still progress fairly slowly. This is because unless the character makes Brawling: Teräs Käsi his or her only "main attack" skill, he or she probably isn't spending anywhere near 100% of his or her CP on it. I don't think leaving it costing half price will break the game at all. Plus, as GM, I still get to indirectly control character advancement rates.

I do like adding damage dice while cutting skill dice, though it adds text to the ability too. If I were to incorporate such an ability, there would be a maximum number of "movable dice" for each level of Teräs Käsi rather than just a static "half" as you have written. It would probably be 1D of movable dice for Students, 2D for Champions, and 3D for Masters.

Also, In my mental SWU, Masters of Teräs Käsi are going to be exceedingly rare, while there may actually be more Champions out there than Students. This means that becoming a Master of Teräs Käsi is going to be exceedingly hard, because first, you'd need to track a Master down (optimally but even rarer, two Masters).

The individual attacks listed on the Wookieepedia page all have pretty cool names. I also like the individual attacks that have descriptions on the page, specifically Spitting Rawl. If someone sat down and converted all those attacks I'd be dumbfounded.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there a write-up of Teras Kasi? Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I wish to have an NPC be adept in it, and I want to know if anyone has developed a coherent and elegant set of rules for it!

It is actually spelled Teräs Käsi. <-- hyperlink


You may have already found this, but the official WEG write-up for Teräs Käsi is in the Shadows of the Empire sourcebook.

That said, it's practically identical to what garhkal has already posted re: what is used by his Sparks group, ie: no other actions can be performed if using the martial art, to hit/damage dice pools are formed (not unlike the quick draw's accuracy/speed split), and it costs equal to a standard skill to improve, rather than half, etc. IIRC, the WEG write-up does not cap the damage dice, but I would have to double-check. No Force-specific defense was ever included either.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are you getting the "teras ki" resists mental attacks thing from??
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there a write-up of Teras Kasi? Reply with quote

Telsij wrote:
Error wrote:
I wish to have an NPC be adept in it, and I want to know if anyone has developed a coherent and elegant set of rules for it!

It is actually spelled Teräs Käsi. <-- hyperlink


You may have already found this, but the official WEG write-up for Teräs Käsi is in the Shadows of the Empire sourcebook.

That said, it's practically identical to what garhkal has already posted re: what is used by his Sparks group, ie: no other actions can be performed if using the martial art, to hit/damage dice pools are formed (not unlike the quick draw's accuracy/speed split), and it costs equal to a standard skill to improve, rather than half, etc. IIRC, the WEG write-up does not cap the damage dice, but I would have to double-check. No Force-specific defense was ever included either.

I have not found that yet! Thanks for directing me to it.

If it doesn't have a rules element consisting of resistance or immunity to Jedi/Sith mental attacks, it seems like WEG made an incomplete conversion. House rules are therefore needed. I think a blend of the WEG stuff and my version (I would add "levels" of Teräs Käsi skill, dice caps, and resistance/immunity to mental Force attacks.) If WEG felt that strongly that Brawling: Teräs Käsi should cost the same as a basic skill, I guess I can't argue with that.

What's the deal with not being able to do anything except attack with it once in a round? What brokenness is that rule element preventing? Seems like MAP's would be just fine to attenuate multiple attacks...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Where are you getting the "teras ki" resists mental attacks thing from??

Wookieepedia wrote:
Teräs Käsi enabled a user to develop extreme speed and an aptitude for anticipating strikes, most notably shown by clone assassins. In addition, Teräs Käsi taught non-Force-sensitives how to close their minds to Jedi and Sith, thus protecting themselves from mental attacks.

This can be found here at the beginning of the second paragraph.

My feeling about it is that after Shadows of the Empire came out, Teräs Käsi was further developed in other media. This is implied by its 15 appearances in other SWU media, where the expansion must have occurred, and by the 18 sources listed on the Wookieepedia page. I'm not sure exactly which of these introduced the closing of the Teräs Käsi practicioner's mind to Jedi/Sith mental attacks, but I'm sure if I dig hard enough I would find right where it is. (Not going to do that.)

However, I believe I have found a solution. I posted a question on the "Discussion" page of the Wookieepedia article asking for the sourcing. Here is that post verbatim:

Error wrote:
Source for Teräs Käsi users having immunity/resistance to Jedi/Sith mental attacks?

This article states in the second sentence of introductory paragraph 2:

In addition, Teräs Käsi taught non-Force-sensitives how to close their minds to Jedi and Sith, thus protecting themselves from mental attacks.

Just curious if anyone can tell me the source of this statement off the top of their head, or even direct me where best to look, because right now I'm not willing to blindly search the 30+ appearances and sources for its origin. It's not in the original West End Games's "Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook," where it was written up as a martial art (without any mention of Jedi/Sith mental attack resistance/immunity). There are also no rules for this aspect of Teräs Käsi in any known West End Games supplemental material, unless I am grossly overlooking something.

The reason I ask is because I am trying to expand the Teräs Käsi conversion in the "Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook" to include this immunity to mental Force attacks, which it does not have.

I wouldn't be surprised if I get no responses at all, because this is honestly a really obscure question. But I hope someone can at least point me in the right direction. My gut tells me it is a comic book thing or something in one of the encyclopedias.

Addendum: It is also important to note that Teräs Käsi is not canonical in any form, though that doesn't really matter for RPG's run in personal SWU's. Even the basic Shadows of the Empire version is Legends material (kind of always has been, though it was closer to canon than most elements because it was a multimedia project rather than just a book or a comic or a video game before Disney took over).
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it was a fan addition to wookiepedia...

BUT either way, i am gonna stick with what was put in shadows of the empire/our sparks ruling on it..
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Maybe it was a fan addition to wookiepedia...

BUT either way, i am gonna stick with what was put in shadows of the empire/our sparks ruling on it..

Right on. Thanks for making me aware of its existence.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't sweat it!!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also the build your own martial art style system int Rebel SpecForce Sourcebook from WEG.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Brain wrote:
There is also the build your own martial art style system int Rebel SpecForce Sourcebook from WEG.


I haven't played in a Star Wars RPG ever, but I enjoy reading the D6 books and the Rebel SpecForce book has to be my favorite of all of them. (Rebel SpecOps is a nice concept for the "rag-tag bunch of misfits" type of RPG, but they don't get nearly as much detail in GG 9: Fragments of the Rim, alas.)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, WotC published rules for Teras Kasi in the Hero's Guide.

In a nutshell, the style does the following things:

Basic: can punch/kick through armor (ignores target's armor... this is not nearly as devastating as it would he in D6).

Expert: can block weapons with arms (in D6 terms, I would expect this to remove or reduce the penalty assessed for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker).

Master: Deals more damage on every hit.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
FWIW, WotC published rules for Teras Kasi in the Hero's Guide.

In a nutshell, the style does the following things:

Basic: can punch/kick through armor (ignores target's armor... this is not nearly as devastating as it would he in D6).

Expert: can block weapons with arms (in D6 terms, I would expect this to remove or reduce the penalty assessed for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker).

Master: Deals more damage on every hit.

These various conversions keep leaving me wondering why it's called the "Anti-Jedi Martial Art" if it doesn't actually do anything unfair to Jedi. Not a lot of Jedi wear armor, for example, so that part is nearly useless...and no, you can't block a lightsaber with your forearm, no matter what a hodge-podge/half-assed conversion in the RAW may say.

Teräs Käsi was created specifically to combat Jedi by a group of refugees from the planet Palawa, which had been badly damaged somehow directly or indirectly by the actions of the Jedi Council. The refugees were the "Followers of Palawa", and they created Teräs Käsi to fight against the Jedi and/or the Sith. So then that is what it is supposed to do, right?

Well, these conversions in the RAW just make it seem like a variation on Brawling with a) more damage dealt by unarmed PC's and b) access to a Brawling dice pool. These are the only reasons to learn it, and they are not compelling. Mainly because more Brawling damage can be had other ways, with a lot less resources; and the optional rules for dice pools in the RAW for skilled-in-combat PC's take care of that part of it too.

Once we start talking about disarming Jedi/Sith of their lightsabers and resistance to Force attacks, then Teräs Käsi will start matching its description and its reputation.
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