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Katars in the RAW?
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Error
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:

Garhkal, I don't know where you're getting your stats, particularly for the vibro-knife. Even the basic vibro-knife (smaller than the smallest Katar by 4-6 inches) gets STR + 3D max 6D (rulebook p. 228), as do the Vibrorapier (Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p. 14),.


You do know there is a difference between a vibro KNIFE and a vibro SWORD/BLADE don't you??
Maybe what You are seeing as knives are swords, and what i see as swords You see as knives..

Actually, my point has always been that the vibro-knife gets STR + 3D (max 6D) in the RAW, while other vibroweapons get way less. Why would someone use a STR + 2D vibrosword over a STR + 3D knife? Unless his or her STR is high enough that maximums are an issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:

Garhkal, I don't know where you're getting your stats, particularly for the vibro-knife. Even the basic vibro-knife (smaller than the smallest Katar by 4-6 inches) gets STR + 3D max 6D (rulebook p. 228), as do the Vibrorapier (Gundark’s Fantastic Technology p. 14),.


You do know there is a difference between a vibro KNIFE and a vibro SWORD/BLADE don't you??
Maybe what You are seeing as knives are swords, and what i see as swords You see as knives..

Actually, my point has always been that the vibro-knife gets STR + 3D (max 6D) in the RAW, while other vibroweapons get way less. Why would someone use a STR + 2D vibrosword over a STR + 3D knife? Unless his or her STR is high enough that maximums are an issue.


Error I believe in TotJ Rwgular swords max at 4D and knives at 6D. You gotta love WEG's consistancy! Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it. TotJ pg 125

Knive STR+1D max 6D
Sword STR+2D max 4D
Axe STR+2D max 5D

Not consistant at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, so hence my write up at the end of the last page of this. I think they are fair.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:

Actually, my point has always been that the vibro-knife gets STR + 3D (max 6D) in the RAW, while other vibroweapons get way less. Why would someone use a STR + 2D vibrosword over a STR + 3D knife? Unless his or her STR is high enough that maximums are an issue.


Actually if you look in the RAW (R&E rule book, they don't HAVE vibro-knives.. JUST vibro blades.
It wasn't till we get into other books they added specifically vibro-knives/daggers, and separated them from vibroblades.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:

Actually, my point has always been that the vibro-knife gets STR + 3D (max 6D) in the RAW, while other vibroweapons get way less. Why would someone use a STR + 2D vibrosword over a STR + 3D knife? Unless his or her STR is high enough that maximums are an issue.


Actually if you look in the RAW (R&E rule book, they don't HAVE vibro-knives.. JUST vibro blades.
It wasn't till we get into other books they added specifically vibro-knives/daggers, and separated them from vibroblades.

Looks like a WEG picture error then to me. If they intended a "vibroblade" to be larger than say, an 8" knife, they should have looked a lot closer at what picture they put with its stats in the RAW. Or been consistent with the same DC for Damage in other larger vibro-weaponry that followed it. Because it looks like a knife to me, and apparently does to a lot of others...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel silly for not knowing this, but would someone need to specialize all over again in Melee attack/parry: vibro-katar if they switch from regular ones to the vibro-versions? I would lean toward not since they would be very similar motions...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I changed it up again and reduced the main damage for both. Just for you, garhkal Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Yeah, so hence my write up at the end of the last page of this. I think they are fair.


Didn't say they weren't fair. I was pointing out to.the.boards that the stats are inconsistant. Which is consistant for WEG.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I feel silly for not knowing this, but would someone need to specialize all over again in Melee attack/parry: vibro-katar if they switch from regular ones to the vibro-versions? I would lean toward not since they would be very similar motions...


Yes. If you have say spec melee-axe, then wanted to wield a vibro-axe that would be it's own spec..

Error wrote:
Looks like a WEG picture error then to me. If they intended a "vibroblade" to be larger than say, an 8" knife, they should have looked a lot closer at what picture they put with its stats in the RAW. Or been consistent with the same DC for Damage in other larger vibro-weaponry that followed it. Because it looks like a knife to me, and apparently does to a lot of others...


I agree, the Pic is very misleading..

Error wrote:
I changed it up again and reduced the main damage for both. Just for you, garhkal Wink


Much better.. Though have you thought of a possible bonus to Parry if using Katars? IIRC that was one of the benefits they had when used.. Similar to those 'sword catcher' daggers, or Sai...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:

Name: Katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: katar
Cost: 350
Availability: 2
Difficulty: Easy
Damage: STR + 1D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The katar is an extremely specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack or parry with one prior to specialization in either incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Moderate Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -1D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires that the user have specialized in the katar.

Name: Vibro-katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: katar
Cost: 1000
Availability: 2
Difficulty: Moderate
Damage: STR + 2D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The katar is an extremely specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack (but not block) with one prior to specialization incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Difficult Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -2D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires that the user have specialized in the katar.


1) I think your costs are too high; for all that it's somewhat rare, the katar is still just a hunk of durasteel and fibermesh.
2) Instead of making the Katar more difficult for those who aren't specialized, why not restrict the punching attack from those not specialized? Or increase the difficulty? So, any fool can pick up a Katar and weild it with their base proficiency, but to take advantage of its specialized attack, you have to be proficient?
3) Vibro-weapons should probably have an F on their availability codes.

Oh, and on the knife/blade debate, check out the Advanced Bounty Hunter on 210 R&E... lists a vibro-knife as +3D. But, as I've argued, I think that's wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Error wrote:

Name: Katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: katar
Cost: 350
Availability: 2
Difficulty: Easy
Damage: STR + 1D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The katar is an extremely specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack or parry with one prior to specialization in either incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Moderate Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -1D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires that the user have specialized in the katar.

Name: Vibro-katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: katar
Cost: 1000
Availability:
Difficulty: Moderate
Damage: STR + 2D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The katar is an extremely specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack (but not block) with one prior to specialization incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Difficult Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -2D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires that the user have specialized in the katar.


1) I think your costs are too high; for all that it's somewhat rare, the katar is still just a hunk of durasteel and fibermesh.
2) Instead of making the Katar more difficult for those who aren't specialized, why not restrict the punching attack from those not specialized? Or increase the difficulty? So, any fool can pick up a Katar and weild it with their base proficiency, but to take advantage of its specialized attack, you have to be proficient?
3) Vibro-weapons should probably have an F on their availability codes.

Oh, and on the knife/blade debate, check out the Advanced Bounty Hunter on 210 R&E... lists a vibro-knife as +3D. But, as I've argued, I think that's wrong.

1. Agreed. I'll take a look at other weapons and scale the prices appropriately.

2. The punching attack is restricted for those without specialization, the last sentence of the abilities read: "This also requires that the user have specialized in the katar."

3. Agreed. How about these?:

Name: Katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: katar
Cost: 200 (for a pair)
Availability: 2
Difficulty: Easy
Damage: STR + 1D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The katar is a specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack or parry with one prior to specialization in either incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Moderate Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -1D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires the user to have already specialized in the katar.

Name: Vibro-katar
Type: Melee weapon
Scale: Character
Skill: Melee combat: vibro-katar
Cost: 300 (for a pair)
Availability: 2, F
Difficulty: Moderate
Damage: STR + 2D (max 6D)
Game Notes:
The vibro-katar is a specialized weapon, so wielders must specialize in the katar before they can use it well. Any attempt to attack or parry with one prior to specialization in either incurs a -1D penalty.
///
The wielder may make a single katar "punching" attack each round, which requires a Difficult Melee combat: katar skill check. Such an attack, if successful, is armor-piercing for -2D, since focusing the full force of the blow on the tip of the weapon tends to bypass armor. This also requires the user to have already specialized in the katar.



garhkal wrote:
Error wrote:
I feel silly for not knowing this, but would someone need to specialize all over again in Melee attack/parry: vibro-katar if they switch from regular ones to the vibro-versions? I would lean toward not since they would be very similar motions...


Yes. If you have say spec melee-axe, then wanted to wield a vibro-axe that would be it's own spec..

Error wrote:
Looks like a WEG picture error then to me. If they intended a "vibroblade" to be larger than say, an 8" knife, they should have looked a lot closer at what picture they put with its stats in the RAW. Or been consistent with the same DC for Damage in other larger vibro-weaponry that followed it. Because it looks like a knife to me, and apparently does to a lot of others...


I agree, the Pic is very misleading..

Error wrote:
I changed it up again and reduced the main damage for both. Just for you, garhkal Wink


Much better.. Though have you thought of a possible bonus to Parry if using Katars? IIRC that was one of the benefits they had when used.. Similar to those 'sword catcher' daggers, or Sai...

Sai are meant to be wielded in pairs, and while one "catches" the opponent's weapon, the other comes out of nowhere and stabs them in the face. That's actually not too far from what a pair of katars does; but instead of catching the weapon, a katar knocks it away, and the user steps in behind the opponent's weapon arc and uses the other katar to hit chest, head, or neck. You can also look up the jitte if you like; it has an undeserved reputation as a "sword-breaker" too.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always loved both the Sai and Jitte..

And those new write ups look very good..
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone. Who helped and who offered suggestions and argued positions on things. shootingwomprats I think found the original stats and ya'll helped me refine them, so now one of my NPC's gets to use them.
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