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Using Technical skills for Sabotage
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just curious, but is sabotaging computers/equipment covered in the RAW at all? It seems like someone would've touched on it somewhere and explained exactly which skill you would roll.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see using a lot of different skills for sabotage, but I would lean towards Repair skills for more sophisticated sabotage. I mean, sure, I can do a lot of sabotage with just the skills Blaster, Demolitions, and/or Lightsaber, but that's not really subtle work, there. If I want to be subtle, I have to use skills that represent a knowledge of how things work, which leads me to favoring the various repair or programming skills.

If I want to sabotage a starship, I have to attack its systems. I might use [Starship] Repair, or Computer Programming, or Droid Programming, depending on the nature of the sabotage. Do I want to cut the Hyperdrive after 23 hours of engagement? That's going to require reprogramming the NavComputer, or making some specific breaks in the hyperdrive system itself (and likely reprogramming the computer, so it doesn't alert them about those breakages).

I can see slicing as an Advanced skill, but I can also see Sabotage as a specialization of various skills. "Yes, I know a bit about programming a droid, but I'm really skilled at f*** one up in unique ways."
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I'm going to call this skill in my own games:

Vexatious & Intentional Electronic Disruption: Subversion & Impairment

Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
In my view, most droids have too defining aspects that differentiate them from regular computers. (1) Artificial Intelligence which is just an advanced computer program and the physical construct for this AI to function (the "droid brain"), and (2) a motile "body". Yes it is true that a good droid technician would need to be able to be able to repair the body and deal with the "mind/body" interface (that RAW's computer programming/repair wouldn't handle), but dealing with the AI aspect of droids (that regular computers don't have) should also be more advanced Computer Programming. Since the two skills overlap in this way, I just combined them into a single skill, Computers/Droids. In general working with droids requires more advanced ability than just regular computers without AI or bodies.

The above is from this discussion about droid brains on ships.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I had considered combining Droid Programming with Computer Programming, but then I started to wonder if programming a fully functional AI might be a tad more complex than programming a datapad.

It is. More complex equals higher difficulty, not necessarily a separate skill. A fully functional AI program is a very complex computer program. In my combo-skill I tend to shift computer difficulties down a bit and droid difficulties up, but otherwise it works pretty much like each skill does separately in RAW.

CRMcNeill wrote:
If anything, I would think Slicing would be good as an Advanced Skill, with Computer Programming /Repair and Communications as pre-requisites.

I can see that, but I think I'll just keep it simple and have slicing be a part of Computers/Droids (with appropriately higher difficulties). As mentioned in the other thread, I've already combined Communications and Sensors into one combo-skill called Com-Scan, and if any communications skill use is significantly applicable to a specific slicing attempt, then a separate roll can be called for.

CRMcNeill wrote:
However, I do think Droid Repair would be a better fit as Droid / Cybernetics Repair, focusing on the hardware of animated machinery, maybe with the ability to repair Power Armor, as well.

Hmm. While there may be some similarities with functioning of some droid parts and some cybernetic parts, I am reluctant to combine the repair skills because a key aspect of cybernetic parts is the biological interface that puts it in the realm of medicine. I can see maybe allowing a character to apply knowledge of droid repair for some basic and/or structural repairs of cybernetic parts.

Regarding power armor, I can see maybe allowing knowledge of that to apply to repairing cybernetic or droid parts that serve an armor function. I've got a Mechanical combo-skill Powersuit/Pack Operation which covers operating jet packs, rocket packs and powersuits (basically character-scale "vehicles"), and its corresponding Technical repair skill also folds non-powersuit armor into it as Armor/Powersuit/Pack Repair.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It is. More complex equals higher difficulty, not necessarily a separate skill. A fully functional AI program is a very complex computer program. In my combo-skill I tend to shift computer difficulties down a bit and droid difficulties up, but otherwise it works pretty much like each skill does separately in RAW.

What's the general increase in Difficulty? That seems a better approach. Of course, I would also think that some Droid Programming rolls would start out relatively easy, since the designers would likely allow the owner to have some basic control over their droid's settings, with a relatively user-friendly interface for that, but sharply increasing in difficulty when someone starts digging around beyond that point.

Quote:
As mentioned in the other thread, I've already combined Communications and Sensors into one combo-skill called Com-Scan, and if any communications skill use is significantly applicable to a specific slicing attempt, then a separate roll can be called for.

I was thinking of that, too. In the case of a combined Communications / Sensors skill, I would likely cut Encryption / Coding off into a separate skill and move it to Knowledge. Under that house rule, (A) Slicing would have Programming and Encryption as prereqs.

Quote:
While there may be some similarities with functioning of some droid parts and some cybernetic parts, I am reluctant to combine the repair skills because a key aspect of cybernetic parts is the biological interface that puts it in the realm of medicine. I can see maybe allowing a character to apply knowledge of droid repair for some basic and/or structural repairs of cybernetic parts.

IIRC, you also moved First Aid from Technical to Knowledge. I can't recall, but it certainly seemed a logical choice. With regards to the above, I would think that a doctor specializing in Cybernetic replacement would need yet another Advanced Skill, with (A) Medicine and Droid / Cybernetic Repair as prerequisites. My thinking is that a character attaching a cybernetic / droid part (and there is evidence in the EU of the two being interchangeable under some circumstances) would need to understand both.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
It is. More complex equals higher difficulty, not necessarily a separate skill. A fully functional AI program is a very complex computer program. In my combo-skill I tend to shift computer difficulties down a bit and droid difficulties up, but otherwise it works pretty much like each skill does separately in RAW.

What's the general increase in Difficulty? That seems a better approach. Of course, I would also think that some Droid Programming rolls would start out relatively easy, since the designers would likely allow the owner to have some basic control over their droid's settings, with a relatively user-friendly interface for that, but sharply increasing in difficulty when someone starts digging around beyond that point.

I agree. I don't have a set guideline, I just look at the examples in RAW, compare my estimate of the relative difficulty between non-AI computer programs and AI droid programs for situation at hand, and wing it. I'm sorry that's not very helpful.

CRMcNeill wrote:
IIRC, you also moved First Aid from Technical to Knowledge. I can't recall, but it certainly seemed a logical choice. With regards to the above, I would think that a doctor specializing in Cybernetic replacement would need yet another Advanced Skill, with (A) Medicine and Droid / Cybernetic Repair as prerequisites. My thinking is that a character attaching a cybernetic / droid part (and there is evidence in the EU of the two being interchangeable under some circumstances) would need to understand both.

Yes, I did move First Aid to Knowledge. I agree that droids and cybernetic parts may be interchangeable in some circumstances, but the key difference is that the droid part has to interface with a droid body and a droid brain. Cybernetic parts have to interface with an organic body and a biological nervous system.

Medicine is an advanced skill and advanced skills can have multiple prerequisites. I also have specializations of advanced skills sometimes having their own prerequisites above and beyond the base advanced skill prerequisites.

You present a good case for the droid programming/repair skill of a certain minimal value being a prerequisite to (A) Medicine: Cybernetics. However I don't see advanced skill in Cybernetics being directly applicable to installing droid parts on droids or re-interfacing heavily damaged droid parts with droid minds. Just the base droid skill, not the advanced skill, because that deals with organic interface.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I agree that droids and cybernetic parts may be interchangeable in some circumstances, but the key difference is that the droid part has to interface with a droid body and a droid brain. Cybernetic parts have to interface with an organic body and a biological nervous system.

But apart from the actual point of interface, how different are the parts themselves? Look at the interior of Luke's hand at the end of ESB; it's a mechanical component that just looks like a real hand. Even better, look at Anakin's hand in ROTS. It's indistinguishable from a droid's hand.

Your point is well-taken that a medical doctor would not need full knowledge of repairing cybernetic parts to be able to install them. My thinking is that what would require the specialized medical and cybernetic knowledge would be the point of interface itself, where the limb's frame connected to living bone, the nerves are connected to signal processors and the skin is grafted over to create a seamless exterior joining. Apart from that, the technical functioning of the internal components of the artificial limb would be little different from that of a similar limb on a droid, and quite different from the organic components of a natural limb.

So what I'm thinking is:
    -For repairing damage to natural body parts, you need First Aid or Medicine (no-brainer).

    -For repairing Droid limb parts and cybernetics, you need Droid/Cybernetic Repair, and a Tech-based character with that skill could just as easily repair damaged cybernetic parts as he could droid parts, so long as he stayed clear of the neural interfaces and such.

    -For implanting a cybernetic limb onto a living being, you need an Advanced Skill with (A) Medicine and Droid/Computer Programming as prerequisites (Medicine to perform the grafting process, and Programming to establish and fine-tune the neural linkages).

    -However, a full-service cyberneticist would be able to perform repairs to both cyborgs and their cybernetic limbs, thus requiring all of the above.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to say that cybernetics is a specialization of the advanced medicine skill. After all, doctors are typically specialized. Even "family practice" is a "specialty" of sorts. Surgeons, neurologists, geneticists, ear/nose/throat, pediatrist, etc etc.

I might allow a droid repair roll for certain relairs but I would almost certainly assess a penalty, no matter how "similar" the task is.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I would tend to say that cybernetics is a specialization of the advanced medicine skill. After all, doctors are typically specialized. Even "family practice" is a "specialty" of sorts. Surgeons, neurologists, geneticists, ear/nose/throat, pediatrist, etc etc.

I might allow a droid repair roll for certain relairs but I would almost certainly assess a penalty, no matter how "similar" the task is.


And doctors are really just specialized vets. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I would tend to say that cybernetics is a specialization of the advanced medicine skill. After all, doctors are typically specialized. Even "family practice" is a "specialty" of sorts. Surgeons, neurologists, geneticists, ear/nose/throat, podiatrist, etc etc.

Allowing specialization on Advanced skills is something I agree with, so long as the specialization wasn't too broadly defined.

Quote:
I might allow a droid repair roll for certain relairs but I would almost certainly assess a penalty, no matter how "similar" the task is.

See, that's what I don't get. In both cases (droids or cyborgs), it is a mechanical device. It does not become more like a natural, organic part just because it is attached to a living being. It's not like WEG even has a skill for repairing cybernetics, so it's up to us to come up with something that works, and Droid Repair (i.e. repairing the moving pieces of artificial limbs and their associated systems) is the closest thing there is to cybernetics. First Aid and Medicine deal with living beings; I would not, for example, allow a character with high First Aid to use the same skill in place of Droid Programming / Repair, as the parts are just too different. Even the tools are completely different; you can't fix a broken bone with a hydrospanner.

So yes, since the part is being attached to a living being, there has to be a Medicine skill roll involved, but there are distinct skills under Technical for repairing things other than living beings.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on topic...

Here's an interesting concept...

In a nutshell, hackers remotely accessed the design file of a 3D printer and modified it to build a flaw into a 3D printed drone propellor, so that the part would self-destruct when placed under certain stresses.

We don't know to what degree 3D-printed parts may exist in SWU manufacturing, but the slicing of software that controls devices presents interesting possibilities.

For example, in another topic, I proposed that ships in the SWU might, as part of their particle / navigation shields, include Trek-type structural integrity fields which reinforce the hull and structure at various points to help the ship better resist the stresses encountered in high-g acceleration and maneuvering. So suppose a slicer could modify the software controlling the SIF / particle shields to induce a failure at a critical moment, such as when jumping into hyperspace. A critical failure like this could cause a ship to literally tear itself apart if the structure were placed under too much stress at a critical moment.

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Back on topic...

Here's an interesting concept...

In a nutshell, hackers remotely accessed the design file of a 3D printer and modified it to build a flaw into a 3D printed drone propellor, so that the part would self-destruct when placed under certain stresses.

We don't know to what degree 3D-printed parts may exist in SWU manufacturing, but the slicing of software that controls devices presents interesting possibilities.

For example, in another topic, I proposed that ships in the SWU might, as part of their particle / navigation shields, include Trek-type structural integrity fields which reinforce the hull and structure at various points to help the ship better resist the stresses encountered in high-g acceleration and maneuvering. So suppose a slicer could modify the software controlling the SIF / particle shields to induce a failure at a critical moment, such as when jumping into hyperspace. A critical failure like this could cause a ship to literally tear itself apart if the structure were placed under too much stress at a critical moment.

Thoughts?

Wow, that's really cool. Subversive and nearly impossible to track, and HIGHLY DESTRUCTIVE.

I think we can assume SWU would have included 3D printing had it been devised 30 or 40 years later... Such thoughts bring me back to the "How does one reconcile a universe conceived in 1973 with the one that ultimately came to be?" question. It just comes up so often. George copied a lot of technology (real and potential) that we had in the 70's when he wrote it, so one might assume he would have done the same had he written it in 2016. So then, we look at the tech we have, and ask ourselves, "How can we integrate this the way GL would have?"

Tee-hee. It's the great THOUGHT EXPERIMENT of playing a Star Wars RPG's in the 2010's...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the concepts of SW is that while a lot of their tech is anachronistic from our point of view, it is incredibly durable. I always imagined much of their tech as far as the basic electronics to control most systems as being really advanced solid state devices. It's a really dumb circuit board that looks like something out of the 1970s, but it can withstand the EMP from a nuke and will last 500 years under normal operating conditions.

Sabotage is an interesting concept. It doesn't take a master mechanic to sabotage something. But, a master mechanic can tell someone far less skilled how to sabotage something. So, you don't need 8D in repulsorlift repair to sabotage something, but you would need to ask someone with 8D how to do it and maybe have 4D in that skill just so you understand what they are talking about. Some sabotage requires no tech skill. Someone had crazy high engineering skills to decipher the Death Star plans, but Luke didn't have to be an engineer to know "shoot torpedo here".

Rebel Alliance characters with a tech skill of 4D or higher would probably know how to do basic sabotage to make vehicles not activate, and take time to figure out. The actual sabotage would be easy or very easy, but I would use the total they rolled as an opposed roll against the tech skill of the one trying to diagnose and repair the disabled device to figure out how long it takes them to figure it out. I don't have a table or anything for that, but I would look up some other skill example in the book and use that as a basis for comparison.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only reservation with this idea is that WEG has two different weapons based around EMP that inflict permanent damage to electronics, both computers and droids...
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