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Noticeable Differences
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
No Initiative roll.

I found myself craving for an initiative roll in the larger battles, so I could handle them more orderly.



You are experiencing something that a lot of GMs new to 1E experience--since most other games have a dedicated Initiative throw.

What you've got to realize is that 1E really does have an Inititive throw. But, the throw is disguised. It's not a dedicated throw that is used for Initiative only, as in, say, D&D.

So, what's this Initiative Throw in 1E?

It's the same throw the character is making for his first action.

Whomever rolls highest goes first.



So...

If Abel is firing at a stormtrooper, the stormtrooper is firing back, and Bettin is running to the ship, then each roll their skills.

Abel rolls his blaster.

Stormtrooper rolls his blaster.

Bettin rolls his Speed Code (his DEX).


When these rolls are made, it tells you the order in which things happened.

If Bettin rolls the highest, followed by Abel, then followed by the Stormtrooper, then this is what happened.

Betting made it to the ship.

Abel (if he rolled high enough to hit) shot the stormtrooper.

And, the Stormtrooper loses his action because he was hit.





Now, I'm about to share with you a TIP that will make your GMing life easier when governing 1E combat.



TIP FOR RUNNING 1E COMBAT.

If you've got a big scenario with a lot of characters and NPCs in it, then you'll want to break down the situation into units.

A unit is formed by the actions of every character that can effect another. These are moments where the action is focused. In a movie, these would be quick cuts, focusing the viewer on what's going on.



In the above example, with Abel, Bettin, and the stormtrooper, you've got two units. Abel and effect the stormtrooper (and vice-versa), so that's one unit. Bettin is all by himself as it doesn't really matter if he gets to the ship before or after Abel and the stormtrooper shoot each other.

Once you've got the action divided into units, you're dealing with only a piece of the action. Resolve each unit--just use common sense on which to play first as, technically, all units play out simultaneously.

So, with the example above, you can just say that Bettin makes it to the ship without rolling because nothing stands in his way.

Then, play out the blaster shots between Abel and the Stormtrooper.





A MORE COMPLICATED EXAMPLE.

Bettin makes it to the ship. Abel missed the the Stormtrooper above, but the Stormtrooper missed in return fire, too.

Now, two more stormtroopers appear. And, out of the corner, two more PCs appear.

Bettin wants to get the ship ready for take off.

Abel fires at his same target, Stormtrooper 1.

Stormtrooper 1 fires at Abel.

Stormtrooper 2 fires at Abel.

Stormtrooper 3 fires at Cain.

Cain runs to the ship to help Bettin.

Dale fires at Stormtrooper 1.



Wow! That looks like a mess, right?

Not if you separate into units. Just take the people who can effect each other. I'll start at the top of what I just said (declarations) and move down.



PLAYING THE ROUND IN UNITS

Unit 1 - Bettin is inside the ship. Can anybody effect what he's doing? Nope. So, he's a unit by himself, and he can do what he wants. He gets the ship ready for take off.



Unit 2 - Abel fires at Stormtrooper 1. Stormtrooper 1 fires at Abel. Stormtrooper 2 fires at Abel. And Dale fires at Stormtrooper 1.

Have all four roll their attacks. Take the highest throw first.

Abel rolls 14.

Stormtrooper 1 rolls 12.

Stormtrooper 2 rolls 15.

Dale rolls 16.

This means that Dale (target number 15) hit Stormtrooper 1, and ST 1 goes down (now roll damage). Since ST1 is hit, he can't fire and loses his action.

Then, ST2 fires at Able. Hits. And Abel goes down.

Simple, right?



Unit 3 - Stormtrooper 3 fires at Cain. Cain runs for the ship.

ST3 rolls Baster, getting 12.

Cain rolls Speed (DEX), getting 10.

This means that ST3 shot Cain before he could make it to the ship. Cain goes down. Roll damage.





SUMMARY.

1. Break your combat down into units. Units consist of every character that can effect the actions of another.

2. Inside of one unit, have everyone make skill checks based on what they are doing with their first actions. The highest roll goes first. That's your initiative and skill roll all wrapped into one.

3. Move on to the next unit.


Last edited by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb on Tue May 30, 2017 11:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
I don't see the use for this in the game at all. Maybe a 2E gamemaster can provide another perspective?


CPs are considered small doses of the Force, luck, what have you. They're not as powerful as a Force Point.

My players loved them, and I fell into a trap where I awarded them too often. In 2E, there are no skill points. CPs work in the game as described but also act as Skill Points do in 1E, if a 2E character wants to improve his skills or attributes.

So, when players get Character Points, they have a decision. They can use them to improve one single roll in the game, or they can use them like Skill Points, not use them in the game, but spend them improving skills and attributes.

You'd think that players would save CPs and do the latter, but my players always used them in-game. It always baffled me. Their characters hardly ever improved.





UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF CP's.

I've discovered what I think is an unintended consequence of adding CPs to the game. When a Pilot is in the pilot's seat, rolling tasks to get out of the way of incoming fire, there's a good chance that he will use CPs on this throws to help him make those throws and save the ship.

The book says that CPs can only be thrown for what the character does--not someone else. For example, I could use CPs on my Dodge to get out of the way of your blaster fire, and I can use CPs on my STR roll to resist damage if I am hit. But, I can't use CPs to change your roll.

CPs can't be transferred between character. CPs represent luck, good fortune, and favor of the Force for that specific individual.

Well, with CPs in the game, that means that it is a huge drain on Han Solo every time he flies the Falcon and TIEs try to blow him out of the sky. Chewie and his passengers don't have to spend CPs like the pilot does.

So, pilots end up spending all of their PCs saving the ship and not having enough to save themselves later in the game, while all the other characters in the party haven't spent a single CP until the ship lands.

I don't think the WEG designers thought of this when they added CPs to the game.


Last edited by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb on Tue May 30, 2017 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zulgyan
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, Skill Points and Force Points relate to something true within the game universe: your personal improvement and the action of the Force in your destiny.

Character Points are purely abstract. A pure gamist artifact with no relation to the game world.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INITIATIVE

BTW, if you want to use an Initiative roll, 2E uses a simple PER roll. This makes sense (rather than DEX) because a person would react off of what he perceives.

Highest throw decides if he acts first or last against his foe. There is advantage in both.

If you act first, you can take out your enemy before he gets a chance to take you out.

If you act last, then you can see what your enemy does and react to it more effectively.

Some races, like the Lordians, have high starting PER scores (like a Wookiee has high starting STR), are given an unintended Combat Advantage (or, maybe it was intended).
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
The thing is, Skill Points and Force Points relate to something true within the game universe: your personal improvement and the action of the Force in your destiny.

Character Points are purely abstract. A pure gamist artifact with no relation to the game world.


No, they're described as small uses of the Force and such in the game, just like Force points.

And, I added the Unintended Consequences part above while you were posting.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

CPs are extra dice a character can spend to increase his chances--usually +2D to a regular throw, but up to +5D on a defensive throw.


I don't see the use for this in the game at all. Maybe a 2E gamemaster can provide another perspective?

It's a pure "gamist rule", with no relation to the cinematic SW experience (the reason to play the game IMO)
Cinematically using a Character Point is like using a Force Point only less so. Instead of the audience hearing the entire leitmotif we might get a single measure or two of music. It's when a character in a movie summons up a little extra grit, determination, or luck so they can succeed.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I don't think the WEG designers thought of this when they added CPs to the game.
I suspect they figured all or nearly all of the characters would be doing some task on board the ship. The gunner may want to hit the TIE and damage it so blows up before it can shoot them, the guy running shields may want to increase his shield roll, the engineer may need to roll well to jury rig a repair or shunt extra power to the shields, engines, or guns, the astrogator may need to make a hasty calculation (which is a more difficult roll) so they can jump.

If you use 1E initiative the gunner may have even more incentive to roll high so his shot hits the TIE before it hits them. I'm tempted to let the shield skill do more than just apply the existing shields if the operator rolls high enough. This would add more incentives for the shield operator to spend CPs.

But you are right that even with all of that the pilot (who rolls his piloting skill for the ship's dodge) has what is often the most important roll. Maybe that's why in ANH Han went to the gunwell and left Chewie to fly the ship. Han wanted to save his CPs for later.
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Zulgyan
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am finding the 1E elements of "Skills Points" and "Force Points" more simple and elegant than 2E. You have everything covered with just those two. You don't really need the addition of Character Points into the mix.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zulgyan wrote:
I am finding the 1E elements of "Skills Points" and "Force Points" more simple and elegant than 2E. You have everything covered with just those two. You don't really need the addition of Character Points into the mix.


I agree. Plus, the game has more of an edge to it without CPs. Putting 5 CPs into a defense roll will absolutely keep you alive.

The deal with CPs is that they allow characters to do heroic stuff more often without spending a Force Point.

Think of CPs as Skill Points that you can also use in-game to add extra dice to skill rolls (at the expense of having less skill points to improve the character).

I've played with them, and I've played without them.

If a GM doesn't go overboard, like I did in a campaign, and spoil players with tons of CPs, they're an interesting addition to the game.

So, those 5-10 skill points that your characters will earn playing Tatooine Manhunt could be spent, if they were CPs, on skill rolls. Up to 2D can be added to normal throws. Up to 5D can be added to Reaction Throws and Defensive throws.

They can save a life at the expense of less or no character improvement.



Oh, and CPs explode. If you use them on a task roll or defensive roll, any CP that rolls a 6 can be re-thrown. And, it can be re-thrown as many times as a 6 comes up. So, if you get super lucky and roll a 6, then roll another 6, then roll a 5, you've added 17 points to your task roll with that one CP.

The Force was definitely with you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to say I appreciate the insight and examples, Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, and thanks for weighing in, Zulgyan, as my gaming preferences generally mirror yours.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I just want to say I appreciate the insight and examples, Wajeb Deb Kaadeb, and thanks for weighing in, Zulgyan, as my gaming preferences generally mirror yours.


Dude, if you've got any questions, then lay 'em on us.

I LOVE talking about this game. Very Happy
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ANOTHER WAY TO HANDLE 1E INITIATIVE


1. First, set up the scene. Describe what the players see. Then, based on that, allow the players to describe what they want to do. The is the Declaration.

2. Then, have everybody roll their first actions. You roll first actions of PCs in secret.

3. Go to the highest roll, and play that out.

4. Go to the second highest roll and play that out.

5. Go to the third highest roll and play that out.

6. And so on.



Then, you move to segment two for second actions. Play as above. Then go to segment three, if there is one, and so on.

Then, move to round 2.





NOTE:

You'll find that, as you play the round out, the segment gets shorter because anybody who hits robs his target of his action.

So, you've got Abel firing at ST3.

Benni firing at ST4.

Cain firing at ST1.

ST3 firing at Abel.

ST1 calling in re-inforcements.

ST2 firing at Cain.

ST4 firing at Benni.



Then, rolls are made.

Able rolls highest, Blaster, hitting ST3.

ST4 rolls second highest, Blaster, hitting Benni.

Cain rolls third highest, Blaster, hitting ST1.

ST2 rolls and misses Cain.

ST3 is hit, cannot act.

Benni is hit, cannot act.

ST1 is hit, cannot act.



So, with all that is going on in this segment, really, it boiled down to 3 attacks that hit and one that missed. The rest could not act and lost their action because they got hit.









NOTE: That 2E is more complicated because being hit can be shrugged off if STR beats Damage roll. In 1E, the minimum that will happen if a character is hit is that he will be stunned and lose his action for the round.

@Zulgyan

I just remember that you're not using the 1E Damage Table, so your fights probably are a bit more complicated--with the ability to shrug off damage.

That 2E system is a little less gritty than 1E.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1E vs 2E

2E is a brilliant game. I more than like it. But, when you think of it, think in terms of "more".

1E is quick. Roll-n-go.

2E is more crunchy, more simulationist.

They each have a different feel to them. The game that you want to play depends on your tastes.





For example, to do a chase in 1E, you simply roll Speed Codes. The winner will give you distance between ships.

A chase in 2E is a lot more simulationist. You roll Initiative. There are terrain modifiers to your roll. You've got to decide on your movement speed. And, there are various maneuvers that you can do in the game, each with their own rules for obstacles and feats of derring do.

It's ton more rolls.

2E isn't bad. It's just different. More "mature" if you will. More bells and whistles. More options. More modifiers. More things to consider.

1E is not about that at all. It's about making a roll I (and the GM making up that roll, if he needs to), and going. Swashbuckling, quick, Star Wars actions.

Both games can be extremely fun.

You just need to decide where your tastes lie.
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