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Wookies are Known to Do That
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Wookies are Known to Do That Reply with quote

So, what's the difficulty for ripping people's arms out of their sockets? Does that difficulty assume you do it one at a time, or restrain their torso so you can pull both off at once?
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well. That's actually an interesting question with little in the way of a hard and fast answer. Is a wookiee actually strong enough to be able to literally rip someone's arm off like popping off a doll's limbs?

Due to having a somewhat morbid fascination with ripping and tearing injuries, I know that muscle tissue and tendons resist a wrenching or rotating motion worse than a straight pull. So the question is, do you mean a wrenching or rotating motion?

Anyways, given that a human adult can pull another adult's arm out of the socket, but seems unable to actually rip it off, we know that we need superhuman strength to do so. Force-wise, one can suspect that one needs somewhere between 30 kN and 200 kN (found some interesting numbers online) for a straight pull to do this, while a wrenching motion is (much) less.

Obviously, wrenching another adult's shoulder joint to such an extent that one needs to surgically repair it is fairly easy for a human adult that knows some leverage principles - connective tissue is tough, but tendons and bone is easier to damage.

We do know that dismemberment through tearing and wrenching is possible with four horses - which means that two horses should be able to literally rip a human adult's arm out. However, the case of Damiens shows that it was just borderline able to do so. Tupac Amaru II also suffered this type of execution - however, instead of a steady pull one might infer that it was more of a sudden jolt that was used.

Due to some hilarious movies on YouTube, one might infer that one horse is more than the equivalent of 20 men when it comes to pulling. And that doesn't seem too far-fetched - NASA states that a human adult can do a sustained push of about 1 kN, so if one horse is 20 men then it should be able to sustain something like 20 kN - and two of them might be able to exert 40 kN, which is in our range of 30 kN to 200 kN.

So far so good. But are we ready to say that a strong (and possibly angry - maybe berserker angry) wookiee is the equivalent of 40 - 50 humans? Maybe not. However, consider the following:

A berserking wookiee with max Strength rolls 8D damage. That gives a maximum (disregarding wild die) of 48 on the roll. An average human is 2D Strength, for an average roll of 7, giving a difference of 41. A difference of 16 or more tends to be an instant kill. If you're beating the difficulty for a kill by 20 or more, feel free to add grisly detail no matter the numbers of the thing.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me i see that whole thing being what wookies choose as a mortal wound with a Maim..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, I see it as ironic and quite silly that a creature known as typically honorable and/or noble would be such a bad sport....


This is one of those silly things I disregard in the SW saga (particularly with regard to Chewbacca... I could see a case for some other unscrupulous wookiee, though.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rule that the Wookiee would have to kill his target with one blow, and the target uses a Force Point to be able to live through the experience.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
For me, I see it as ironic and quite silly that a creature known as typically honorable and/or noble would be such a bad sport....


This is one of those silly things I disregard in the SW saga (particularly with regard to Chewbacca... I could see a case for some other unscrupulous wookiee, though.


That is true. Wookies in all forms of literature are shown as honorable, so why would Three peo have said "let him win, he might rip your arms out otherwise"??
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Urban Spaceman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
For me, I see it as ironic and quite silly that a creature known as typically honorable and/or noble would be such a bad sport....


This is one of those silly things I disregard in the SW saga (particularly with regard to Chewbacca... I could see a case for some other unscrupulous wookiee, though.


I've always just thought that Han was winding the droids up.

Maybe we'll see Chewie ripping peoples arms off in the Han movie Wink
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RyanDarkstar
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a deleted scene from The Force Awakens where Chewie rips off one of Unkar Plutt's arms after Unkar repeated pokes Chewie's wound. Before this I figured Han and Chewie were just posturing.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some honor in Wookiees. Obviously, they've got the Honor Life Debt. But, they're not all goody-goody Paladins.

Chewbacca is a smuggler. He breaks the law.

I don't know if you count the Marvel comics as a good source, but they are considered canon. And there is a new character--a bounty hunter--called Black Krrsantan. He's a Wookiee and not such a good guy.



There's the reference ripping arms off, which I don't think was that much posturing. Chewie sure seemed to want to allow it to happen--for his opponents to throw the game in his favor.

And, check out that scene in TFA where he is being treated for his injury. Does he stoically, heroically withstand the pain? No. We learn that Chewie has a big ego! And the doctor treating his wounds is mocking him. "That sounds like you are soooo brave."
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
A berserking wookiee with max Strength rolls 8D damage. That gives a maximum (disregarding wild die) of 48 on the roll. An average human is 2D Strength, for an average roll of 7, giving a difference of 41. A difference of 16 or more tends to be an instant kill. If you're beating the difficulty for a kill by 20 or more, feel free to add grisly detail no matter the numbers of the thing.
I wouldn't require so much overkill. If the Wookiee did enough damage to kill his opponent, but the player of the Wookiee prefers to tear an arm off instead, as a GM I'm good with that.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally get what you mean, which is basically what I was getting at with my comment on an unscrupulous wookiee.

But since we are talking about wookiees in general, honor is a trademark of wookiee culture. Honor and "good alignment" need not coincide, either. But, if we want to make a comparison to a paladin-like code, I'd say that in the case of the "typical" understanding of "honor," fairness is at the heart of such things. So, even a bad guy can be fair or act in his own self interest but within certain limitations (for example, not exploiting women or children).

A wookiee who loses a game fair and square should typically be expected to honor the outcome or else be shunned by his kinsmen as dishonorable.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
There is some honor in Wookiees. Obviously, they've got the Honor Life Debt. But, they're not all goody-goody Paladins.

Chewbacca is a smuggler. He breaks the law.

I don't know if you count the Marvel comics as a good source, but they are considered canon. And there is a new character--a bounty hunter--called Black Krrsantan. He's a Wookiee and not such a good guy.



There's the reference ripping arms off, which I don't think was that much posturing. Chewie sure seemed to want to allow it to happen--for his opponents to throw the game in his favor.

And, check out that scene in TFA where he is being treated for his injury. Does he stoically, heroically withstand the pain? No. We learn that Chewie has a big ego! And the doctor treating his wounds is mocking him. "That sounds like you are soooo brave."
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wookiees ripping arms out of sockets has always been a bit of hyperbole for me.

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

It's the idea and imagery that is important.

Like if I said that my neighbour 'chewed my head off' because I didn't trim my lawn...I would hope that people wouldn't expect me to be headless.

Likewise if I was doing something a certain way because I said that otherwise my sergeant would 'Tear me a new @sshole'... I would expect that the person I was talking to would know that I meant I'd be in a lot of trouble...not that I'd have a new orifice in my body.

These are expressions that are definitely meant to have an impression...not to be completely ignored...but not to be taken literally either.

I could just as easily say to a friend who is playing pool with a soldier from another regiment "Hey, knuckle-draggers from that regiment are known to rip people's arms out of their sockets if they lose."

The point would still be made that my friend might be in for a fight if he doesn't throw the game, without implying that one human is going to literally tear the arms off another.

Now having said all that, I do know there are various EU sources that try to illustrate the event/ phenomenon/ practice/ cultural proclivity or tendency literally. The one off the top of my head is in the young Han solo trilogy, first book, where Han's protector grabs a guy by the arm and with a forcible whip-snapping action dislocates the guy's arm from its socket.

Nice try, but (for me) it didn't really work. The EU tries too hard to explain every little speck of dialogue in the movies...and often not to good or reasonable effect.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Wookiees ripping arms out of sockets has always been a bit of hyperbole for me.

Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
Whether it was hyperbole or not, I think Han meant it to be taken literally.

Quote:
Like if I said that my neighbour 'chewed my head off' because I didn't trim my lawn...I would hope that people wouldn't expect me to be headless.
They might if your neighbor looked like this.

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griff
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Han said "out of their sockets" not "off their bodies". Bu rip does imply off.
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