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The Case for Hex Maps & Six Fire Arcs
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:

What if guns can fire in their designated arcs... and in adjacent arcs with -1D fire control?


I'd say make it -2d...

I think it's a one-size-fits-all-except-not-really solution. For one thing, it adds complications to combined fire, since some guns will have a Fire Control 2D lower than the others. It adds in-game bookkeeping that is better dealt with before the game.

I'd go with something more along the lines of...
    -Starfighter mounted cannon with a Fire Arc of Front remain unchanged, as do Turret weapons.

    -For Capital Ships, Front Arc weaponry may fire into the Front Arc, but is also split 50/50, with half the cannon able to fire into the Front/Left arc, while the other half may fire into the Front/Right Arc. Rear arc weaponry is the same, but reversed.

    -Left and Right Arc weapons may fire into both Arcs on their side (Left/Front and Left/Rear for Left Arc weapons, and Right/Front and Right/Rear for Right Arc weapons)

    -Some weapons will have greater fire arcs due to their positioning. For instance, the center-line ion cannon on the ISD (shown on the Incredible Cross Sections version) would be able to fire in the Front, Front/Left and Front/Right Arcs.

    -Other variations would be decided on a case-by-case basis.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, you're dividing the side arcs in half and allowing them to engage semi-front or rear in addition to being able to shoot off to the side.

That's reasonable.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is, and it's how i've ran Lancer frigates in the past..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons for a Base 6 number generator like D6 to use a hex map. For one thing, it's a lot easier to calculate scatter on a 6-sided pattern when using a 6-sided D.

I also like the general idea of hex maps for D6 games. But in air and space, there is another dimension. So with the game's existing 4 arcs, you really have 6 directions anyway: Fore, Aft, Starboard, Port, Dorsal and Ventral. This is represented well by a d6 die. Each face of the cube is a direction from the center of the cube. Of course it is difficult to represent 3-D space on a 2-D plane. WEG's old Star Warriors game had you stack the chips on pennies to represent their relative "up and down" positions from each other (with the lowest relative position being the map itself). It was a pain to adjust th pennies every round so we just simplified by playing the battles with only a 2-D consideration of the hex map itself, ignoring the third dimension of space.

With the 3D nature of space, this is why I think it is best to not map out ship locations that precisely and just be more abstract about space combat.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Of course it is difficult to represent 3-D space on a 2-D plane. WEG's old Star Warriors game had you stack the chips on pennies to represent their relative "up and down" positions from each other (with the lowest relative position being the map itself). It was a pain to adjust th pennies every round so we just simplified by playing the battles with only a 2-D consideration of the hex map itself, ignoring the third dimension of space.


It is a pain but imo the effort's worth it..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the FASA Renegade Legion books, their Leviathan Capital Ship combat system explains that, in the event of a space battle, ships under attack tend to maneuver into the same plain as their attacker so as to better bring their guns to bear, such that combat generally occurs on a 2D map, even if "horizontal" at the end of the battle is wildly different from where it was at the beginning. I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true in the SWU.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that working according to such an assumption solves 99% of RPG areal combat problems.

The only outstanding question that pops to mind off the bat is whether it matters if one engagement is happening on a different plane from another (or an intersecting plane, for that matter) Not sure if it matters, just something that sticks out in my mind.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I would think that working according to such an assumption solves 99% of RPG areal combat problems.

The only outstanding question that pops to mind off the bat is whether it matters if one engagement is happening on a different plane from another (or an intersecting plane, for that matter) Not sure if it matters, just something that sticks out in my mind.

In the Renegade Legion system, their only concession to it was a rule that allowed ships to occupy the same grid on a map without consequence, by saying that one ship was either above or below the other.
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ebertran
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unpopular opinion:

I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebertran wrote:
Unpopular opinion:

I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces.

That's not an unreasonable perspective, but the flipside is that using a map in this fashion will actually help by giving the GM and players a frame of reference insofar as spatial relation for combat purposes. Much easier to calculate who is where and who can shoot at what based on positioning.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I found something interesting. Leviathan uses a hex map, but still uses 4 fire arcs. My tablet isn't letting me screenshot it, and I can't find it on line, but I'll see if I can do something about that the next time I'm home.

Anyway, nice to see that four fire arcs still work on a hex...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would the four arcs be this?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Would the four arcs be this?

Oddly enough, the arcs are right (except for the inclusion of Turrets in the arcs), and the name is right, but the game is wrong. From what little I can gather, this version is surface combat oriented, using hover-warships. The FASA Renegade Legion game is space combat oriented.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
ebertran wrote:
Unpopular opinion:

I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces.

That's not an unreasonable perspective, but the flipside is that using a map in this fashion will actually help by giving the GM and players a frame of reference insofar as spatial relation for combat purposes. Much easier to calculate who is where and who can shoot at what based on positioning.


Not just that, but it can also help eliminate arguments of "No that fighter is not in your dorsal fire arc, but only the vental one", Or "That ship is too far for your torpedos but is well within the range of your ions"..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebertran wrote:
Unpopular opinion:

I almost feel like the entire concept of trying to create a tactical space combat game with fire arcs, and maneuvers, and this type of granularity sort of breaks with the spirit of the fast and loose style d6 embraces.


You'll probably find that the 8 or so of us around here are roughly split down the middle on the issue, actually.

But, the purpose of the House Rules forum is to help folks figure out how to make their idea work well, even if your opinion is negative: sometimes, the constructive critique can help get the idea going in the right direction: finding that balance between simple playability and detailed-narrative rules sets.
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