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The Last Jedi (original spoilers thread)
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
I can understand how a casual viewing of this scene might make Obi-wan seem like a heartless anti-hero, but the novelization of ROTS puts the reader in the mind of Obi-wan during this scene. And remember, this is Obi-wan Kenobi we're talking about here, one of the most kind-hearted characters in all of Star Wars. Obi-wan is not the type of person who would Mercy Kill a sentient being if there was any other alternative.
Leaving him to die a lengthy and agonizing death isn't more ethical. It's either selfish and cowardly or it's cruel. Obi-Wan could have done a lot of things besides using his lightsaber as a miséricorde. He could have administered first aid and pain killers or he could have tried to use the force to put Anakin to sleep, take away his pain, or otherwise help him. He could even have stayed with his "friend" until his friend had finally passed away so that he didn't die alone. He did none of those things. He turned his back, close his ears to the screams, and walked away.

Whill wrote:
Obi-Wan couldn't kill a defenseless Anakin but he could walk away and let him die, resigned that his training had failed to prevent Anakin from turning to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan not mercy killing Anakin was out of weakness, sure, but not horrific evil.
The music, no matter how sad or poignant, does not over-ride the actual actions in the scene nor my emotional reaction as a witness to those actions. I do agree that weakness is the primary motivation for OB1's actions in this scene. However I don't think that weakness is his only motivation.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't divorce the music from the film. The music is an inherent aspect of the film. I can't interpret a scene the opposite of what the music says about the scene. The filmscore really enhance the experience, especially for Star Wars. George Lucas and John Williams were inspired by the silent film era and Lucas said he felt you could remove all sound from Star Wars except the music, and viewers would still be able to follow the basic plot because the music tells the story. I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who can so easily disregard the filmscore because you're not enjoying Star Wars nearly to the same level that I am.

Bren wrote:
Leaving him to die a lengthy and agonizing death isn't more ethical. It's either selfish and cowardly or it's cruel. Obi-Wan could have done a lot of things besides using his lightsaber as a miséricorde. He could have administered first aid and pain killers or he could have tried to use the force to put Anakin to sleep, take away his pain, or otherwise help him. He could even have stayed with his "friend" until his friend had finally passed away so that he didn't die alone. He did none of those things. He turned his back, close his ears to the screams, and walked away.

Perhaps you forget that Padme had been harmed by Anakin and had fallen to the ground unconscious with an uncertain medical status before their battle. Do you think that Obi-Wan should have stayed and comforted that child killer instead of go to Padme who Obi-Wan knew was pregnant and hadn't crossed over to the Dark Side? The choice was obvious. As sad as it was, he left his evil former friend to die while he went to try to save Padme and her unborn child.

And you criticize Obi-Wan in RotS as if it exists in a vacuum. Obi-Wan couldn't have mercy killed Vader because then the classic trilogy would be erased. Besides Padme dying, Obi-Wan couldn't have stayed there with Anakin and comforted him because how would that make sense with their next encounter on the Death Star? Vader had to be left there to die so that he would be saved by Palpatine and transformed into classic cyborg Vader, leading to the classic trilogy. This is the nature of prequels. What happens in the story has to lead to the original work they are based on. So Obi-Wan should do what leads to ANH, not away from it. It's futile to argue Obi-Wan should have done all these contradictory things.

If you have a greater point that RotS is bad movie on its own because Obi-Wan is a horrific immoral monster of a character, you seem to be going out of your way to bash RotS. The bleakness of RotS, RO, TESB and TLJ was brought up with respect to the series as a whole and the dramatic value it adds to chronologically subsequent films. TLJ is the one that we don't know where it is leading.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The bleakness of RotS, RO, TESB and TLJ was brought up with respect to the series as a whole and the dramatic value it adds to chronologically subsequent films. TLJ is the one that we don't know where it is leading.


To be completely accurate, between 1980 (when TESB came out) and 1983 (when ROTJ came out) we didn't know where TESB was leading either. Of course, we have long since learned where it led in 1983.

But Whill's basic point is sound. Yeah, we don't know where this story is going. My worry (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) is whether the surprise that Ep IX will present as a story is worth the necessarily haphazard story flow that results from having different authors chain-writing the entire Sequel Trilogy. I want to say that I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm decidedly not a fan of chain writing. So I have to exercise the only option left to me, which is to reserve judgment until I see Ep IX, judge it on its own merits and then rejudge TLJ both on its own merits and in the greater context of the entire Sequel Trilogy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The impression I got from the RotS novelization was that Obi-wan was very adept at trusting in the Force. His battle scene with General Grievous shows him feeling opportunities coming without knowing the details until just before.

His decision to leave Anakin alive was based on the same intuitive “trust”, as if the Force was telling him to leave Anakin alive without telling him why, and he was too in tune with the Will of the Force to do otherwise.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I can't divorce the music from the film.
You aren't supposed to. I heard the music, but hearing the music doesn't negate the immorality of the actions.

Quote:
I can't interpret a scene the opposite of what the music says about the scene.
Clearly I can. Or perhaps I hear something different in that scene than do you. Do you think that there is only one correct interpretation of a piece of music or a work of art?

Quote:
I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who can so easily disregard the filmscore because you're not enjoying Star Wars nearly to the same level that I am.
There is no cause to feel sorry for me. And I have to say, Whill, that phrase borders on the paternalistic which tends to exacerbate a disagreement or turn it into a pissing match. All I’m going to say is that watching a film is an individual, subjective experience. As it is supposed to be.

Bren wrote:
Do you think that Obi-Wan should have stayed and comforted that child killer instead of go to Padme who Obi-Wan knew was pregnant and hadn't crossed over to the Dark Side? The choice was obvious.
It is not the case that his only choices were stay with Anakin or try (and fail) to save Padme.

Quote:
And you criticize Obi-Wan in RotS as if it exists in a vacuum. Obi-Wan couldn't have mercy killed Vader because then the classic trilogy would be erased.
I’m weighing the morality or ethics of the action in the situation as it was presented on screen. I don’t consider enabling the original trilogy to be a valid ethical consideration in assessing the character’s action. Moreover, I don’t accept (and you have not even tried to show) that the only way the scene could possibly have played out to allow for the original three films was exactly what we saw on the screen.

Quote:
What happens in the story has to lead to the original work they are based on. So Obi-Wan should do what leads to ANH, not away from it.
Should dramatically. Not should ethically.

Quote:
It's futile to argue Obi-Wan should have done all these contradictory things.
It’s not futile if we want to assess the morality of the action. If you don’t consider the morality or ethics of the action to be relevant, then why are we even talking the ethical status of the action or the actor?

Quote:
If you have a greater point that RotS is bad movie on its own because Obi-Wan is a horrific immoral monster of a character, you seem to be going out of your way to bash RotS.
You seem to be reading my criticism of Obi-Wan’s action as somehow bashing the film as opposed to being horrified by an action and criticizing the ethics displayed as part of the dramatic choices made by the author, director, and producer that led to that action being depicted on screen. Why is that?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
His decision to leave Anakin alive was based on the same intuitive “trust”, as if the Force was telling him to leave Anakin alive without telling him why, and he was too in tune with the Will of the Force to do otherwise.
That could be a valid interpretation. I'm not sure the musical background supports that though. Do we hear a sound of peace for Obi-Wan or do we hear more rage, grief, and loss?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... wonder what the consequences of OB1 killing Anakin would've been? The Jedi, at that point, are mostly dead, aside from Kenobi and Yoda. Would Palpatine had another proto-apprentice... one who didn't have Anakin's ties... step into the role Vader assumed?
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
His decision to leave Anakin alive was based on the same intuitive “trust”, as if the Force was telling him to leave Anakin alive without telling him why, and he was too in tune with the Will of the Force to do otherwise.

Reminds me a bit of this:

“‘What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’

“‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand.… Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.… My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when it comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.’”
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Whill's basic point is sound. Yeah, we don't know where this story is going. My worry (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) is whether the surprise that Ep IX will present as a story is worth the necessarily haphazard story flow that results from having different authors chain-writing the entire Sequel Trilogy. I want to say that I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm decidedly not a fan of chain writing. So I have to exercise the only option left to me, which is to reserve judgment until I see Ep IX, judge it on its own merits and then rejudge TLJ both on its own merits and in the greater context of the entire Sequel Trilogy.

At least for this chain-written trilogy, the author of the first part is also doing the last part. Two authors is one step better than three separate authors. And even though Johnson had creative freedom with TLJ, he and Abrams did sit down and discuss their respective ideas. Like I have said elsewhere, I feel there is convincing evidence that Johnson may have honored Abram's vision of who Rey is and not only left it intact for Abrams to fully realize in Episode IX, but may have even furthered it in ways that aren't clear to us yet.

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
I can't interpret a scene the opposite of what the music says about the scene.
Clearly I can. Or perhaps I hear something different in that scene than do you. Do you think that there is only one correct interpretation of a piece of music or a work of art?

Ah, we're going back to Dr. Pine's philosophy classes. The age old question, is art merely subjective to the appreciator? Is art strictly just what the artist intends it to be? Yes, art is subjective to the appreciator so there may not be only one correct interpretation of the Immolation Scene music. And sometimes an artist such as Williams may make music that is nebulous and intentionally open to multiple interpretations. But I don't think so here. I think there is an intended meaning by Williams when he wrote that music, which had some direction by Lucas for what he was shooting for. That's the meaning I've been speaking of here.

Bren wrote:
Do we hear a sound of peace for Obi-Wan or do we hear more rage, grief, and loss?

I do hear grief and loss. I don't hear any rage or peace. I don't think that the music has to portray peace for Obi-Wan to have had some guidance by the Will of the Force to not slay Anakin. I think CRMcNeill brings up a good point, which completely jives with Lucas' statements of the deeper meaning of Return of the Jedi that the prequels provide. In multiple parts of RotS, Obi-Wan explicitly states an expectation that Anakin is the Chosen One who will destroy the Sith. He is the Chosen One and he eventually does destroy the Sith.

Bren wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
His decision to leave Anakin alive was based on the same intuitive “trust”, as if the Force was telling him to leave Anakin alive without telling him why, and he was too in tune with the Will of the Force to do otherwise.
I'm not sure the musical background supports that

You sound like me!

MrNexx wrote:
Hmmm... wonder what the consequences of OB1 killing Anakin would've been? The Jedi, at that point, are mostly dead, aside from Kenobi and Yoda. Would Palpatine had another proto-apprentice... one who didn't have Anakin's ties... step into the role Vader assumed?

Yes, this tangent has also gotten me thinking about what-ifs such as, What if Obi-Wan had killed Vader? Or What if Obi-Wan had gone to face Palpatine and Yoda had gone to face Vader?

Falconer wrote:
“‘What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!’

“‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand.… Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.… My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when it comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.’”

Lucas was heavily inspired by LotR, so it is certainly possible that is the kind of thing Lucas was going for.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Quote:
I truly feel sorry for you and anyone who can so easily disregard the filmscore because you're not enjoying Star Wars nearly to the same level that I am.
There is no cause to feel sorry for me. And I have to say, Whill, that phrase borders on the paternalistic

Whoa, that was not at all intended to be "paternalistic". I can't adequately express how much Star Wars and Star Wars music mean to me. I listen to the music separately from watching the films. A lot. The music alone can bring tears to my eyes and lumps to my throat. The Immolation Scene music is one of my favorites. I can't explain why. It's certainly not happy and cheerful and adventurous. It's heartbreaking, but it's beautiful. I wish all Star Wars fans could enjoy the Star Wars music like I do. But what I was feeling sorry for what seemed to be cold detachment to the music. Yes, there can be multiple interpretations of music, cinema and other art, but to me it seemed that the only way it would be possible for someone to think Obi-Wan is an evil is for the music to be utterly ineffective at communicating Obi-Wan's actual feelings. But even for non-Star-Wars fans - If they listen to that piece of music with no context and they still don't have the slightest emotional reaction - I feel sorry for them. But this isn't meant to express any sort of superiority over other fans. Trust me, I feel quite sorry for myself for not being able to appreciate TLJ like a lot of people who rave about it as one of the best Star Wars movies. They have something I don't. I'm happy for them, and jealous. I feel sorry for myself and recognize I lack something they have, but I do not think I am inferior to them.

Bren wrote:
Whill, that phrase borders on the paternalistic which tends to exacerbate a disagreement or turn it into a pissing match.

This sentence seems to me an attempt to justify you getting argumentative and casting the blame on to me. The pissing match simply will not happen so please zip it up. Borderline paternalistic? That's coming next...

Bren wrote:
Quote:
If you have a greater point that RotS is bad movie on its own because Obi-Wan is a horrific immoral monster of a character, you seem to be going out of your way to bash RotS.
You seem to be reading my criticism of Obi-Wan’s action as somehow bashing the film as opposed to being horrified by an action and criticizing the ethics displayed as part of the dramatic choices made by the author, director, and producer that led to that action being depicted on screen...

The whole movie RotS, and the entire Star Wars saga as a whole, hinge on Obi-Wan not being an evil monster. To illustrate that with music, John Williams "The Force" theme IS Obi-Wan's theme. The many uses of The Force theme through all nine movies (even RO) do not indicate evil actions on screen.

Your tangent in this TLJ thread (that RotS was much more than just "bleak" because of Obi-Wan's great horrific evil) uses sensational language. If it looks like a bash and smells like a bash, I still have to treat it like a bash, even if you argue that it isn't. This "horrifically evil Obi-Wan" tangent in this TLJ thread is disproportionally negative, which is against forum posting guidelines: Please reread these.

Bren wrote:
...Why is that?

Because I am the site admin here and it is my responsibility to this community. I'm not your father, and I'm not trying to be Moses throwing down commandment tablets. Ideally, the forum guidelines would speak for themselves and everyone would self-moderate. Ideally, my role as site admin would only be to manage the financial, technical and operational aspects of the site, mostly behind the scenes. But no, this is the real world and people don't always place nice. Sometimes I even have to moderate myself!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: THE LAST JEDI COMES HOME Reply with quote

http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-comes-home

Quote:
THE LATEST CHAPTER IN THE SAGA ARRIVES MARCH 13 ON DIGITAL AND MARCH 27 ON BLU-RAY 4K ULTRA HD, BLU-RAY, AND ON-DEMAND.

It is interesting that there is no mention of a devoted DVD release. Other websites I've checked out for physical copy release details do not have one either. I can't believe that the DVD format is on its way out. I know plenty of people that don't have a blu-ray player and don't do digital/streaming for movies. It seems that those people have to buy a blu-ray with a DVD copy to watch it.

Then again I'm always slow to embrace new technologies. Blu-ray seems enough definition for me for my high special effects movies. I have no interest in upgrading to 4K. The last new VHS players in the world were made in 2016, but hopefully disc players will maintain backwards compatibility with DVD because there are plenty of movies and TV shows I have no desire to upgrade above DVD. But I still have a working VHS player hooked up to one of my two TVs and some VHS tapes too (but nothing I'd really cry about if I lost).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: THE LAST JEDI COMES HOME Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
http://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-comes-home

Quote:
THE LATEST CHAPTER IN THE SAGA ARRIVES MARCH 13 ON DIGITAL AND MARCH 27 ON BLU-RAY 4K ULTRA HD, BLU-RAY, AND ON-DEMAND.

It is interesting that there is no mention of a devoted DVD release. Other websites I've checked out for physical copy release details do not have one either. I can't believe that the DVD format is on its way out. I know plenty of people that don't have a blu-ray player and don't do digital/streaming for movies. It seems that those people have to buy a blu-ray with a DVD copy to watch it. .


Sounds like they are screwing a lot of the market then, cause i own over 700 dvds, and will NOT yet again, spend thousands converting them to digital or blueray, like i did with my large VHS collection, i had to convert to dvd over a decade..
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blu-ray players are backwards compatible.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For now at least.. What's to say in 2-5 years, they remove that and only start selling blue-rays.?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had my blu-ray player since my wife and I got our first apartment together when we were dating, 2009? You could buy one now for about $50 and enjoy backwards compatibility, and I have little doubt that it'll still be functioning in 5 years if they decide to do away with DVD as a format entirely.

Better than spending thousands on replacing your DVDs to new format?

Also, they have legitimate services (VUDU) that allow you to "convert" your owned DVDs to own on digital format for $2 a pop.
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