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Damage/Wound & Healing modifications
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:25 pm    Post subject: Post subject: Re: Damage/Wound system modifications Reply with quote

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=161842#161842

Savar wrote:
this has been a vary good read

Tupteq wrote:
@Whill, thanks for summary!

Thank you and you're welcome!

Savar wrote:
I had misunderstood stunned. and was thinking of creating a stun damage track to mirror the physical damage tract and have the stun setting on weapons be the "normal" damage dice.

My revision to stunned is slightly different than RAW, so I'm not sure what you misunderstood but I just wanted to make sure you don't think this was just a rewording only. Mainly I followed D6 Space (effectively Star Wars D6 3rd edition minus the Star Wars IP) in using the stamina skill value to resist the "affecting" stun accumulation instead of Strength. This gives low Strength characters a way to not get knocked out quite as easy by raising their stamina (I don't allow attributes to be raised so raising Strength after play begins is not an option in my game).

As far as the damage track, that's a good idea if it will be helpful to you but I ultimately don't feel it is necessary for my game. I did create a separate field on my character sheets called Stuns that keeps track of the total number of stunned results in the last half hour without a minute of rest to know when the unconscious threshold has been reached. For the immediate effect (the rest of the round received and the next round), that's not too hard to keep track of in your head or on scratch paper during combat, even though it is possible to get stunned results on subsequent rounds so they expire differently. The immediate effect is only two rounds so not too bad. Most characters can't take more than a few in any combat encounter before falling unconscious anyway.

Regarding the stun setting being the normal damage dice, do you just mean the same damage value like RAW and my revision? I think I remember one suggested mod of lowering the stun damage dice to address the problem of stun damage being tactically superior to normal damage in RAW, but I found it was easier to just shift the chart so that unconscious is equal to incapacitated instead of starting at only wounded. In my revision, normal damage is now back to being tactically superior to stun damage, but stun damage is still comparable when you need the target alive.

Tupteq wrote:
I like the most that it looks you didn't miss any edge case, everything is described precisely and there's no need of guessing.

Thanks. As I was diving into this I realized RAW left open some rare edge circumstances that I wanted to address along the way of implementing my changes.

Tupteq wrote:
Although, this system looks very deadly because number of reasons. First of all it's much easier to get a Wound (1-7 instead of 4-8 ) and slightly easier to be killed (15+ vs 16+).

Correct. It is undeniably a little deadlier for everyone, but that was intentional. Maybe the number values and ranges in RAW were the result of intensive play-testing and tweaking, but they seem arbitrary to me. The numbers are the difference between a damage roll and a strength to resist damage roll, so realigning them with the average dice roll values give the my chart a mathematical elegance and made it slightly deadlier at the same time. Honestly, I still don't feel that my system is as deadly as blaster combat seems in the films, but it is a little closer. I still have stunned for normal damage and you don't even see that in the films. In the movies armored characters that have 3D damage resistance in the game are routinely being what would seem to be at least "incapacitated" with weapons the game stats out with 4D and 5D damage. A 5D weapon against a 3D character, or a 4D weapon against a 2D character - that's a difference of only 2D which has an average of 7. In my version a D>R of 7 is still only the top edge of wounded. But I don't want to make the game any deadlier than I already have, so that's where I'm at.

Tupteq wrote:
Other thing is stun damage from normal attack (when D≤R) - if i understand it correctly, with this approach wookiee (STR 6D, Stamina 6D) hit six times by an ewok (STR 1D) will fall unconscious.

Not when brawling. If Brawling attempts are stun damage, then my stun damage still has a "no effect" result. So a 1D strength Ewok that happens to get hit a 6D Wookiee 6 times in one battle, odds are that most results, if not all, are no effect.

If you mean with a melee weapon that include Strength as part of the damage, there is more I haven't posted, but yes with a normal damage weapon it could possibly work out that way, but this is an extreme example. If an Ewok hits a Wookiee with a spear a couple times, that's only going to make the Wookiee mad, and then the Ewok will be knocked out quick, or worse, before the Ewok gets a chance to hit the Wookiee 6 times in one battle. And this is even if the Ewok could hit that many times in the first place.
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Savar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

My revision to stunned is slightly different than RAW, so I'm not sure what you misunderstood but I just wanted to make sure you don't think this was just a rewording only.


no after reading your post I went back and re-read the stun rules and they made more sense.

so now I will just have the caster make a test to resist the effects of casting a spell if they fail they are stunned. with out having a track just a counter like you talked about.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Damage/Wound system mod - Strength Damage Reply with quote

Damage/Wound System modifications summary

OK, let's move forward with more mods. "Strength Damage"?

D6 Space, p.14 wrote:
Strength Damage
. Strength Damage indicates the amount of harm a character can do in combat with body parts, melee weapons...

Determining Strength Damage
. To determine the Strength Damage die code, take the character's Strength or lift (including any die code modifiers from Disadvantages or Special Abilities) and drop the pips. Divide by 2, and round up.

. Example: A character with 3D in Strength has a Strength Damage of 2D. A character with 6D+2 in lift has a Strength Damage of 3D.

The halving aspect of this rule attempts to address the issue of brawling and melee with strong characters defaulting to overpowering damage from blasters, etc. Including the lifting skill allows for characters to put skill dice and CPs into doing more damage into melee attacks at the expense of raising other skills. I like the Lifting skill having a more general 'exerting muscle force' aspect (outside of the other Strength skills). In my experience Lifting is not a common skill for any characters, but let's consider a starting Wookiee PC with Strength 5D and Lifting 7D. According to this Purgatory D6 rule, he would have 4D damage for brawling, and +4D damage with melee weapons where character strength is a factor. That seems more reasonable than RAW's 5D, and he has 2D less skill dice to allocate elsewhere.

Putting this rule into chart form gives you this (highlighting the transition points to the next higher D value):

Lifting or . Strength
Strength. .Damage
_
. 1D . . . . . . 1D
. 1D+1 . . . . 1D
. 1D+2 . . . . 1D
. 2D . . . . . . 1D
. 2D+1 . . . . 1D
. 2D+2 . . . . 1D
. 3D . . . . . . 2D
. 3D+1 . . . . 2D
. 3D+2 . . . . 2D
. 4D . . . . . . 2D
. 4D+1 . . . . 2D
. 4D+2 . . . . 2D
. 5D . . . . . . 3D
. 5D+1 . . . . 3D
. 5D+2 . . . . 3D
. 6D . . . . . . 3D
. 6D+1 . . . . 3D
. 6D+2 . . . . 3D
. 7D . . . . . . 4D
. 7D+1 . . . . 4D
. 7D+2 . . . . 4D
. 8D . . . . . . 4D

What I don't like about this is that towards their goal of rule memorization simplicity (ignore starting pips and round down the result), we lose the natural incrementalism inherent to the D6 system. Lifting 2D+2 gives me SD 1D, but then when I raise my Lifting to 3D I suddenly gain an entire +1D to my SD?

So I thought, what if we don't drop the pips and round down? As a starting point, let's first do the even D die values with no pips:

L/S SD
2D. 1D
4D. 2D
6D. 3D
8D. 4D

Then filling in the rest of the die values from 1D up to 8D in an gradient pattern gives us this (highlighting the transition points to the next higher D value)...


STRENGTH DAMAGE

Lifting or . Strength
Strength. .Damage
_
. 1D . . . . . . 0D+1
. 1D+1 . . . . 0D+2
. 1D+2 . . . . 0D+2
. 2D . . . . . . 1D
. 2D+1 . . . . 1D
. 2D+2 . . . . 1D+1
. 3D . . . . . . 1D+1
. 3D+1 . . . . 1D+2
. 3D+2 . . . . 1D+2
. 4D . . . . . . 2D
. 4D+1 . . . . 2D
. 4D+2 . . . . 2D+1
. 5D . . . . . . 2D+1
. 5D+1 . . . . 2D+2
. 5D+2 . . . . 2D+2
. 6D . . . . . . 3D
. 6D+1 . . . . 3D
. 6D+2 . . . . 3D+1
. 7D . . . . . . 3D+1
. 7D+1 . . . . 3D+2
. 7D+2 . . . . 3D+2
. 8D . . . . . . 4D

This maintains the spirit of 'half' but the results are more closely half-values and fully gradient within the framework of the D6 system. And even though this progression is not as easy to remember, you only have to refer to the chart during character creation and whenever you improve your lifting skill, as long as you have a Strength Damage field on your character sheets like they do in Purgatory D6. I've used this for years.

I know some of you are ok with RAW as-is so don't see a need for either version of the mod. I feel that Purgatory D6 addressed a known issue with the Star Wars system, but I just didn't completely agree with their implementation of the solution.



EDIT: See this post below for results on brawl playtesting these mods
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not bad. I feel that this would need to be coupled with something like the Rules of Engagement options to account for a Bruce Lee dealing significant amounts of damage despite having less muscle mass/bulk (I.e. "lifting") than an Arnold Schwartzenegger type.

Striking the right spot is how a fight is won quickly.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
That's not bad. I feel that this would need to be coupled with something like the Rules of Engagement options to account for a Bruce Lee dealing significant amounts of damage despite having less muscle mass/bulk (I.e. "lifting") than an Arnold Schwartzenegger type.

Striking the right spot is how a fight is won quickly.

I completely agree. The Strength Damage for unarmed combat above is intended just for normal "barroom" brawling with the Brawling skill. I think increased damage should be possible with Advanced/Martial Arts skill use, something like in RoE. That's very cinematic!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, it also loops back around to the question about Damage... two guys with a STR of 4D will punch each other for a while before they even stun the other.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Of course, it also loops back around to the question about Damage... two guys with a STR of 4D will punch each other for a while before they even stun the other.

Not sure what the question is in that, but as far as the statement, yes, two guys could trade punches for a while with 'no effect' results, just like in movie brawls. However in my games that rarely ever goes on for too long because because one combatant gets the upper hand in some way by escaping from the other, shoving the other over a ledge, picking up a blaster or makeshift melee weapon, etc. But yes my system is more conducive to cinematic barroom brawls where brawlers take a dozen punches before someone is knocked out or the fight ends through other means.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made some (A) Martial Arts rules way back when.

http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/starwars/rules/starwars_rules_martialarts.html

Basically, it's an extra dice pool that allows either a skill boost or a damage boost - as long as the total bonus between the skill boost and the damage boost doesn't go over the (A) Martial Arts skill.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
That's not bad. I feel that this would need to be coupled with something like the Rules of Engagement options to account for a Bruce Lee dealing significant amounts of damage despite having less muscle mass/bulk (I.e. "lifting") than an Arnold Schwartzenegger type.

Striking the right spot is how a fight is won quickly.

I completely agree. The Strength Damage for unarmed combat above is intended just for normal "barroom" brawling with the Brawling skill. I think increased damaged should be possible with Advanced/Martial Arts skill use, something like in RoE. That's very cinematic!

Reminds me of something I proposed a while back as an alternate method for lightsaber damage, namely, using Dex as the damage base instead of Strength. Rather than straight 5D damage, I proposed Dex+5D (it makes more sense when combined with dropping the Control bonus to Damage).

IMO, a better way to generate Strength damage would be to convert the Strength/Lifting Dice into pips, divide by half, then convert back to Dice.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
IMO, a better way to generate Strength damage would be to convert the Strength/Lifting Dice into pips, divide by half, then convert back to Dice.

That's exactly what my chart is, with the half-pip results rounded down. I chose rounding down because going from XD+2 to YD+0 is a jump in average results of 1.5, so I thought that getting the step up of the next highest D in Strength Damage should fall on a whole Lifting D (and rounding down achieves that, on the even Lifting Ds).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
That's exactly what my chart is, with the half-pip results rounded down. I chose rounding down because going from XD+2 to YD+0 is a jump in average results of 1.5, so I thought that getting the step up of the next highest D in Strength Damage should fall on a whole Lifting D (and rounding down achieves that, on the even Lifting Ds).

Very well, then. Carry on. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Damage/Wound system modifications Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
EDIT: I added " R≥2D .- / - " (no effect) to the character damage chart.

1e had no "soak" result for character damage but 2e has it for all D>R results, which never sat well with me. Many people don't like the absence of a no effect result for normal damage. Despite the fact that the most common weapon type used in Star Wars (blasters) never show that (including armored characters) except for Phasma in TLJ, I can still see their point for a general damage system. So I decided to go with the 1.5e compromise between 1e and 2e for normal damage. If the Resistance roll is at least double the Damage roll, then the result is no effect. If the Resistance roll that is greater than the Damage roll but less than double it, then the result is stunned.

Zarn wrote:
I made some (A) Martial Arts rules way back when.

http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/starwars/rules/starwars_rules_martialarts.html

Basically, it's an extra dice pool that allows either a skill boost or a damage boost - as long as the total bonus between the skill boost and the damage boost doesn't go over the (A) Martial Arts skill.

Thanks for sharing that here. That is a good reference when I am ready to circle back around to Martial Arts.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Damage/Wound System modifications playtesting Reply with quote

Damage/Wound System modifications summary

Strength Damage

My son and I did some playtesting of barroom brawls with evenly matched opponents. We tested using the "Strength Damage" mod with normal damage, and full strength for stun damage.

Let me first say that RAW with no effect for all damage resistance rolls equal or greater to could go on a while with evenly matched opponents, so I would have to say that in D6 Space's Strength Damage or my tweak of it for Star Wars would both not work well. I also think that even with my damage chart, combining both rules (brawling is stun damage and this post's "half-damage" mod) would be completely out of the questions as it would take some lucky rolls just to even stun an evenly matched opponent.

Our playtesting of my Strength Damage mod was with my damage chart for normal damage, which puts stun into R≥D but no effect for R≥2D. With the Strength Damage being approximately half the normal strength code, the odds correlate nicely with RAW's location of stun and no effect, so the benefit gained from these mods comes with brawling and melee weapons not so easily doing more damage than blasters. One good punch resulted in a wound, but all the rest of the damage results of hits in this playtest were stun or no effect.

Our brawl playtesting with using full Strength as stun damage also worked nicely with my modified stun damage chart because it was still about 50-50 for your landed punch doing a stun or no effect. And again, the benefit from this mod comes in that punches of stronger characters don't equal blaster bolts (and the most savage beat-down possible is going to be unconscious with a wound).

All brawls were played until knockout. The rolls didn't give us any single hit unconscious results on the stun chart, but all brawls of both rules ended by the stun accumulation rules (my mod makes it when the total # of stun results received in the fights equal to the Ds of stamina instead of RAW's strength).

I feel both rules capture the spirit of cinematic brawls so I am going to allow for both rules as options. When brawling unarmed and a success occurs, the attacking player can choose to roll the chart's Strength Damage for normal damage, or his full Strength as stun damage. With normal damage it is a lot less likely to result in a serious injury but still possible, so if the attacker only wants to knock his opponent out he can choose go the stun path and not worry about anything more than a wound with a knock-out.

If using a blunt melee weapon that could conceivably be used to knock someone out, I don't see any reason not to allow the player to choose that to be stun damage as well. And for melee weapons where strength is a factor in damage, both rules still work like in RAW in that the weapon's damage code is added (to either the Strength Damage for normal damage, or full strength for stun damage), and you are accordingly doing more damage than just brawling.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Healing and Medicine Reply with quote

Damage/Wound System modifications summary

Strength Damage


Now let's move on to healing mods. These are mostly just more tweaks.

I added the stipulation that medpacs can only be used successfully once per injury. Otherwise someone with three medpacs and the medicine skill could roll 7D or more to fully heal a mortally wounded character with only three subsequent Difficult rolls, and then what would the point of bacta tanks be? And not mentioned below, I also don't like the idea that using a medpac for stunned/unconscious uses it up completely, so in my SWU standard medpacs come with two compartments: one little one for stun effects and unconsciousness, and the other main compartment for wounds. Using one compartment does not use up the other.

There is one new mechanic. R&E p.98-99 has rules for Natural Healing, Medpacs and Bacta Tanks, but I feel there is something missing. Medpacs are first aid. I feel that medical droids and living characters with the Medicine skill should be able to do more than just administer bacta tank treatments. Bacta tanks may still be preferred because of the low difficulty and treatment time for full recovery, but what if a bacta tank is not available? So I created a simple system for surgery and medical treatments that requires medicine rolls from the doctors and healing rolls from the patients, so it can be thought of as an augmented natural healing system.

I also reordered them from the book. If a character is only wounded and in the hands of a someone skilled in first aid, they may just want to try a medpac first and only get a bacta treatment if unsuccessful. A character with anything worse than a wounded status will often still want first aid first to improve the wound status one level (to shorten bacta time), and bacta tanks aren't usually going to be available immediately after getting injured so first aid may be the only option to improve until you can get to a bacta tank. After bacta tank, the medical treatment without bacta tank option is next, and then if nothing else is available or works, there's fully natural healing.

The difficulty levels below are my redefined difficulty ranges based on die code probabilities.


HEALING

Medpac
Degree of Injury / Difficulty
S, U, U+A / Very Easy
W, W2 / Easy
I / Moderate
M / Difficult

If the first aid roll is successful, the patient heals. Unconscious characters are revived. All stuns and all stun damage effects are nullified. Wounded characters are fully healed. Severely wounded, incapacitated and mortally wounded characters all improve one level.

If the first aid roll is unsuccessful, the character’s condition remains the same. If the first aid roll misses the difficulty by more than 7 points, the medpac has pushed the injured character’s body to its limit. No more medpacs can be used on him for a full standard day (24 hours).

After a medpac has been used successfully, another medpac cannot be used on that character until there is another change in wound status from damage. Whether used successfully or unsuccessfully, increase the first aid difficulty one level for each additional medpac used on a character in a single full standard day’s time.

Time Taken
1 round - reviving an unconscious character, and removing stunned status and all stun damage effects
1 round - healing from wounded to no wound status, or healing from severely wounded to wounded
2 rounds - healing from incapacitated to severely wounded
3 rounds - healing from mortally wounded to incapacitated (normally done after stabilizing the patient)

Bacta Tank difficulty levels remain what they are in RAW. Healing times are below.
. W 1D hours (1-6 hours)
W2 2D hours (2-12 hours)
. .I 2D+11 hours (13-23 hours)
. M 1D days (24-144 hours)

Surgery and medical treatments (aside from first aid and bacta tanks)
Degree of Injury / Difficulty
W, W2 / Very Easy
I / Easy
M / Moderate

Medicine roll, Difficulty assumes standard medical facilities. Failure means no improvement and character can’t get medpac or any further medical treatment for current injuries except by bacta tank. Failure by 7 or more immediately worsens wound status to one level lower. Success means character will heal as below:

Wounded characters must rest for two days before automatically becoming fully healed.

Severely wounded characters must rest for three days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
4+ Character is fully healed
1-3 Character improves to wounded

Incapacitated characters must rest for ten days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
8+ Character is fully healed
4-7 Character improves to wounded
1-3 Character improves to severely wounded

Mortally wounded characters must rest under medical care for 35 days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
11+ Character is fully healed
8-10 Character improves to wounded
4-7 Character improves to severely wounded
1-3 Character improves to incapacitated

Natural Healing
Wounded characters must rest for two days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
8+ Character is fully healed
4-7 Character remains wounded
1-3 Character worsens to severely wounded

Severely wounded characters must rest for three days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
8+ Character improves to wounded
4-7 Character remains severely wounded
1-3 Character worsens to incapacitated

Incapacitated characters must rest for ten days before making a healing roll.
STR
Roll Result
11+ Character improves to severely wounded
8-10 Character remains incapacitated
1-7 Character worsens to mortally wounded

(There's no Mortally Wounded chart here because a character can’t naturally heal from mortally wounded - Even stabilized, the character dies in an hour without some kind of medical intervention.)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall something like this coming up before, but I can't seem to track it down...

I do remember reading somewhere of the suggestion of using Stamina to soak Damage instead of Strength, and that the idea got shot down in short order (and rightly so, IMO).

But if D6 Space generated Strength Damage by halving the character's Strength Attribute or Lifting Skill Dice, perhaps the same could be applied to Stamina? Specifically, have a character's Damage soak be based on either Strength or half of their Stamina skill.
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