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Awarded character points (ACP) as a measure of PC power.
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Error
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Awarded character points (ACP) as a measure of PC power. Reply with quote

Hi everyone! I was wondering if you, the communal brain, could provide commentary/suggestions on this (the more of the latter, the better).

I have been looking for a way to qualify and quantify each PC in terms of how much power that PC has in game terms. Since WEG has no leveling system to give a clear measurement of PC power, this is necessary. You plot each PC along a scale, a scale which starts at 0 and goes to 1000 and indicates how far PC's are along it, which are in the middle, and which are beginners, and which are at any other point along that scale.

For my own games, I use ACP (accumulated character points) to determine the overall power level of a PC. The ACP measurement is the cumulative total of character points a PC has been rewarded by the GM from the character's creation until now, throughout the course of regular play, and should be kept track of by both the PC and GM.

Now, some CP's are used on rolls, but many more seem to go into building a character. I feel like less than 100 ACP is a novice, 101-250 is an experienced beginnger, 251-750 is a middle character, 751-1000 is advanced, and 1001+ is legendary.

The reason I want to do this is so that I don't pair characters who have 800 build (CP) with ones with 60 build (CP), plus it's also nice to see how far along PC's can get.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For ideas, you might try looking at Earthdawn... they had a similar concept in Legend Points, and used Total Legend as a metric of character notoriety... someone with tens of thousands of Legend Points (which I *think* is a reasonable number) was going to be necessarily better known than someone with hundreds of them, simply because they'd done so much more.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is kind of similar to how Sparks handles it. Every 7 game sessions you play, (equating to roughly 50cp earned) you are 'bumped up a sheet'.. So a character who's earned 250 cp through his career is sheet 5. While one who's earned 1000 is sheet 20...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I have been looking for a way to qualify and quantify each PC in terms of how much power that PC has in game terms. Since WEG has no leveling system to give a clear measurement of PC power, this is necessary. You plot each PC along a scale, a scale which starts at 0 and goes to 1000 and indicates how far PC's are along it, which are in the middle, and which are beginners, and which are at any other point along that scale.

For my own games, I use ACP (accumulated character points) to determine the overall power level of a PC. The ACP measurement is the cumulative total of character points a PC has been rewarded by the GM from the character's creation until now, throughout the course of regular play, and should be kept track of by both the PC and GM.

Now, some CP's are used on rolls, but many more seem to go into building a character. I feel like less than 100 ACP is a novice, 101-250 is an experienced beginnger, 251-750 is a middle character, 751-1000 is advanced, and 1001+ is legendary.

The reason I want to do this is so that I don't pair characters who have 800 build (CP) with ones with 60 build (CP), plus it's also nice to see how far along PC's can get.

garhkal wrote:
That is kind of similar to how Sparks handles it. Every 7 game sessions you play, (equating to roughly 50cp earned) you are 'bumped up a sheet'.. So a character who's earned 250 cp through his career is sheet 5. While one who's earned 1000 is sheet 20...

garhkal, the difference is, he doesn't want to mix "16 sheet" PCs with "1 sheet" PCs.
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: Awarded character points (ACP) as a measure of PC power. Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I was wondering if you, the communal brain, could provide commentary/suggestions on this (the more of the latter, the better).

Error, I think that is an excellent idea! Your ACP is almost one dimension of my three dimensional stat called "Caliber". I don't only use this for PCs - I use it for all characters. For NPCs I find that it helps me plan and tweak the ability levels of the PC enemies, rivals and supporting characters.

Caliber: Total Attribute Dice / Starting Skill Dice / Character Points spent on advancement

In my game, all PCs of all species have 18D in attributes and can't raise attributes, so 18D would be the first value. NPCs could have any dice value, most would be less but some could be more. The second value is the number of skill dice the character has when created. Species bonuses that provide extra skill dice to allocate are counted, but special abilities that give a bonus to rolls during play are not counted here. These do not include technological bonuses such as armor. For PCs and most NPCs, these first two values in the stat would never change.

The third value is not the total awarded CPs but the total built into the character through advancement (mostly improving skills). The total CPs awarded would include those CPs 'burned' to improve rolls in play, and that is pretty worthless in this stats because those CPs do not appear anywhere within the character-build and thus do not help at all when determining the ability level of the character. Once burned, those CPs are gone forever. If I included them in the stat, that would artificially inflate some character ability evaluations and be less valuable as a tool for comparison between characters because some players burn more CPs than others. I keep track of all CPs awarded in an adventure log so simple arithmetic could always determine how many total CPs were awarded and how many were burned during play. For PCs, this value is the one that will increase often.

RAW's typical starting PC would have this for Caliber: 18D/7D/5.
RAW's typical stormtrooper have this Caliber: 12D/7D/0.

PC Caliber is also a gauge for building replacements for deceased PCs. For the sake of game balance I don't want a new PC to be too far behind the rest of the group, but they also shouldn't be equal to their dead character. So I will look at the lowest caliber member of the group and make the replacement PC be a little less than that (becoming the new lowest).

Just throwing this out there. I hope it helps.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

garhkal, the difference is, he doesn't want to mix "16 sheet" PCs with "1 sheet" PCs.


Yes we all know you have a heart ache with that mixing tables up, but it can happen in most every living game system out there... I was just comparing what Sparks does to what he was suggesting...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My gut tells me to completely ignore the artificial reading of counting "spent CP" along with "improvement CP" as long as it is a reading. The "tilt" at which I run my games will typically indicate how many CP a given player needs to spend to get through things, though this is not true for everyone. For example, there are the CP-hungry who spend them whenever they want success and others who only spend them when they need success. But I believe it all averages out. A 500 ACP character is not going to be someone with starting stats and is not even comparable to a 200 ACP character in general. Unless they are completely backward on the concept of improving attributes and skills (plausible, I guess, but unlikely. I would never recommend a GM run a session or adventure that forces PC's to spend CP in ludicrous amounts. But then again, if the PC's get themselves into that situation, that's another thing entirely.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true Error. I've known quite a few players through out the years who horde CP, to bump up attributes only, and a few select skills, then just use the rest in game for 'need to succeed/save their @$$ rolls' While others spend them improving all sorts of skills being very well rounded...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have my players record their total XP, so if a new player joins, or current player dies, I know what 'level' to bring them in at.

But, also yes, you need to 'reduce' that CP total by the average expenditure during game, and that can only be judged by your group.

After a three year, weekly campaign, my players racked up about 250CP total, and I worked out, spent between 50%-75% in game, but that of course will vary depending on your group.

Also remember that a new player has to spend according to proper 'advancement' rules.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally have every character sheet track points in detail.
XP: unspent points
CP: points spent on improving rolls
SP: points spent on improving skills (and attributes when it happens)
EP: points spent on creating or improving equipment
This lets me know not only how powerful a particular character is, but also if someone has fallen behind the main group substantially.

NOTE: I'm painfully aware that some forums dislike "thread necromancy," but having just discovered this forum last year (when preparing to restart a D6 game after nearly a decade), I have been looking at things of increasing age. Should I be placing posts in line, starting a new post with a hypertext link to the relevant older post, or just try to let it go?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argentsaber wrote:
I personally have every character sheet track points in detail.
XP: unspent points
CP: points spent on improving rolls
SP: points spent on improving skills (and attributes when it happens)
EP: points spent on creating or improving equipment
This lets me know not only how powerful a particular character is, but also if someone has fallen behind the main group substantially.

NOTE: I'm painfully aware that some forums dislike "thread necromancy," but having just discovered this forum last year (when preparing to restart a D6 game after nearly a decade), I have been looking at things of increasing age. Should I be placing posts in line, starting a new post with a hypertext link to the relevant older post, or just try to let it go?


We have no issue here with Thread necromancy..
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my opinion only, but I feel that ACP is not a correct measure of power, but of experience.

A character will be in a large degree depending on the attributes to gowern power, in cases like this.

2D Dex and 4D Dex
naturally each of these two guys have 5 other attributes, but as they grow so does the cost to increase.

1000Cp total, so lets say both spend out of this 200 On Blaster.

now One starts at 4D the other at 2D
it is not much, but it is a cost.......going 2D+1, +2, 3D, +1, +2 THEN you get the point where the other begins.

Experience however outranks everything, as I deem someone strong all over as far superior than someone superb in some and totally lost in others
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argentsaber wrote:
I'm painfully aware that some forums dislike "thread necromancy," but having just discovered this forum last year (when preparing to restart a D6 game after nearly a decade), I have been looking at things of increasing age. Should I be placing posts in line, starting a new post with a hypertext link to the relevant older post, or just try to let it go?

No, there's no rule strictly against thread necromancy here. The Forum Posting Guidelines say, "Please use the Search function or otherwise look for recent threads on the same topic before posting a new thread or resurrecting an old one."
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Argentsaber wrote:
I'm painfully aware that some forums dislike "thread necromancy," but having just discovered this forum last year (when preparing to restart a D6 game after nearly a decade), I have been looking at things of increasing age. Should I be placing posts in line, starting a new post with a hypertext link to the relevant older post, or just try to let it go?

No, there's no rule strictly against thread necromancy here. The Forum Posting Guidelines say, "Please use the Search function or otherwise look for recent threads on the same topic before posting a new thread or resurrecting an old one."

Mostly I was concerned about adding my two credits on a conversation everyone was finished with. I'm in the process of consolidating my own house rules which have accumulated over decades of play (when I started, the "new" d6 book was the rules companion), and I have found many valuable insights here.. I was just concerned with causing issues.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread Necromancy is actually welcome around here because it can jumpstart ideas or projects that may have stalled out due to distraction or hitting a mental block. Don't ever apologize or feel hesitant to do so.

As far as the original concept, I think it's appropriate. I just wish WEG had done something similar from the beginning, because one thing that would be neat to impossible to track is CP expended to enhance a single skill roll. Perhaps for NPCs, when calculating Caliber (the method I prefer out of what has been discussed so far), we could use a D roll - maybe 1D per 20 points - to randomize an amount of CP earned, then expended on single skill rolls, thus not reflected in permanent Attribute and Skill dice. Either that or split Character Points and Skill Points so that one can be used to improve skills, while the other may be spent as Diet Force Points, but can't be mixed.
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