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Resurgent-class Battlecruiser
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Using the numbers in the OP, and just going with the "right" firing arc, Poe would have to destroy 16 Double laser turrets, 15 laser turrets, and 9 Heavy laser turrets.

You're claiming that Poe and Finn destroyed 40 turrets on the Finalizer before zooming off towards Jakku?



Nope. I'm saying they didn't need to damage or destroy "all" the turbo lasers on the ship. This was your statement I was responding to.


That's what the New Order officer said to General Hux. "All." I just repeated here what the officer told Hux.



Quote:
And where do you get 40 from? Nowhere does it say that all the forward firing turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the ship.


I took it from the OP. The first post in this thread.




Quote:
Pilots aren't required to sit in their fighters 24/7. Even the pilots that are on standby duty ready to scramble will take a few minutes to get to their fighters and launch in the chaos left behind by Finn and Poe.


My point is that they'd have enough time to launch if Poe and Fine were buzzing about, taking out 40 turbo laser batteries.


Last edited by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb on Thu May 04, 2017 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
He got the stats from Star Wars Chaos, which I think is a faction based pBp sort of game. Its not D6 for sure and loosely called an RPG.


Actually, I got them from your first post in this thread.

I've never heard of Star Wars Chaos.
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ForbinProject
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
And where do you get 40 from? Nowhere does it say that all the forward firing turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the ship.


I took it from the OP. The first post in this thread.[/quote]

And once again I ask you to point out exactly where it states that 40 turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the star destroyer.

Ignoring my question isn't going to change that nowhere in the stats you are looking at does it say anything about the number of weapons mounted on the bottom half of the Finalizer.

It actually only mentions the dorsal mounted turbolasers and ion cannons

Quote:
Massive turbolaser turrets and heavy ion cannons dot the flanks of the Finalizer's upper hull


Now it does say this later

Quote:
an additional brace of forward batteries set on either side of the bow


That means there are two batteries on the left and right side of the bow of the ship. This could mean one of two things.

a. both braces are mounted on the top left and right sides of the bow, or...

b. both braces have one battery mounted on the top of the bow and one battery mounted on the bottom of the bow.

The movie supports B. where we see two ventral mounted batteries being destroyed. Other than those two batteries we see maybe half a dozen smaller turrets on the bottom of the ship and only two missile turrets that were incorrectly called cannons by the bridge crew.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
And once again I ask you to point out exactly where it states that 40 turbo lasers are mounted on the ventral side of the star destroyer.


I'm not ignoring anything. I was using stats established in the OP. I'm assuming @Shootingwomprats knows what he's doing.

That star destroyer is huge--bigger than the old Imperial class ships. The Imperial class had 60 turbo laser batteries, according to the canon section of the Star Wars Wiki.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_I-class_Star_Destroyer

Let's just go with that and say that 20 batteries cover the ventral fire arc on the Finalizer. That's a conservative estimate.

My challenge still stands.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Force Awakens Incredible Cross Sections says that the Finalizer has more than 3,000 turbo lasers and ion cannons.

That's a canon source, correct?

http://www.vgblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/Games/starwarstheforceawakensincrediblecrosssections/StarWars_TheForceAwakens_IncredibleCrossSections_005.jpg



Estimate--

That's say, 200 laser batteries and 100 ion cannon batteries.

Six fire arcs: Bow, Aft, Starboard, Port, Ventral, and Dorsal.

That's over 30 batteries covering the dorsal fire arc.

Plus, some of the bow and starboard batteries could also fire at Poe and Finn, given the angle shown in the film.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
No, I do want it to make sense.

And, I was looking for that other thread--I wanted to post there.

I don't really think you addressed most of what I brought up, too.

You basically say that a lot of the shooting happens off camera. OK, let's say that happens. It still doesn't make sense that a single TIE blew up all or most of the Finalizer's turbo laser turrets, to where, the only thing left for the First Order to use was the ventral canons.

The link I had provided above was to my prior post in this same thread, not another thread. As of my previous post, I addressed every single "point" you had raised. I suspect you are having difficulty in navigating this site and seeing every post. Might I suggest you just go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read every post to get the stuff you missed. I am confident you'll understand better if you truly are motivated to allow this to make sense to you.

Due to dialogue evidence quoted previously, it is likely that there were other turbolaser cannon taken out that weren't shown. We don't need to see every single one. The additional actions are implied by dialogue, and the two we saw was enough to demonstrate what was happening. I suggest you read up on film editing choices. George Lucas himself has said quite a lot on the matter. And no, more than two does not necessarily mean all. Poe was probably most concerned with fire arc/escape vector. It's not all or nothing.

As I stated previously, there is a third weapon type or other turbolaser cannons left to fire at them. The star destroyer opening up with everything they've got left is represented on camera in three ways: (1) There are space shots with green blaster bolts shown firing at the TIE fighter while the missiles are chasing it, (2) There are TIE cockpit shots showing blaster bolts in the viewports behind the characters, and (3) There are TIE cockpit shots showing green flashes on the characters representing numerous near misses.

And again, Finn had destroyed the TIE launch command tower before they had left the hangar bay. That could throw a damper in quickly launching the other TIEs.

https://youtu.be/k3C83hzkg7o?t=204

If you won't re-read the whole thread, then please at please at least re-read this post and keep my words in mind while you notice things in the video.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu May 11, 2017 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The Force Awakens Incredible Cross Sections says that the Finalizer has more than 3,000 turbo lasers and ion cannons.

That's a canon source, correct?

http://www.vgblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/Games/starwarstheforceawakensincrediblecrosssections/StarWars_TheForceAwakens_IncredibleCrossSections_005.jpg



Estimate--

That's say, 200 laser batteries and 100 ion cannon batteries.

Six fire arcs: Bow, Aft, Starboard, Port, Ventral, and Dorsal.

That's over 30 batteries covering the dorsal fire arc.

Plus, some of the bow and starboard batteries could also fire at Poe and Finn, given the angle shown in the film.

Per the RAW, starships only have four fire arcs; there are no dorsal or ventral.

The deeper issue is, IMO, does it really matter? For many reasons, I can't even imagine ever using a Resurgent in a game. Not to disparage SWR's hard work, as I have poached several of his TFA stats for use in the Classic Era, but nothing about TFA inspires me to want to game in that era. We know next to nothing about the SWU of that time, and the weapon strafing issue is far from being the movie's biggest plot hole. I'll withhold final judgement until I see how it fits with episodes 8 & 9, but as of right now, TFA is easily the worst of the SWU films, AFAIAC. My impression is that JJ Abrams basically phoned it in because he knew he could put a Star Wars logo on a dog turd, and fans would still pay $10 to gather around and stare at it anyways.

Even if it weren't, stats for ships like the Finalizer are basically just space going plot railroads; only the idiotic or the suicidal would consider attacking it, so if a Resurgent shows up on your left, pretty much every PC is going to move to the right.

So, again, why does it matter? The ship is a plot device, and nothing more. If the plot needed a strafing run to take out enough weapons to get clear, then that's what it took.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Due to dialogue evidence quoted previously, it is likely that there were other turbolaser cannon taken out that weren't shown. We don't need to see every single one.


I acknowledged that. This also brings up the problem of Poe/Finn taking out A LOT of the batteries on the star destroyer.

As the officer who informed Hux said--all of the turbo laser batteries were taken out.

Whether we assume that's on a firing arc or, indeed, every single battery on the star destroyer, it's a bit unbelievable.

It's believable that we cut away in the film and didn't see all the batteries destroyed. It is unbelievable that Poe/Finn took out all the batteries on a firing arc or on the entire ship--and that the ship didn't launch other TIEs to prevent that.

It's also unbelievable, even if we did cut away, that Poe/Finn could have take out all those batteries quickly.





Quote:
And no, more than two does not necessarily mean all. Poe was probably most concerned with fire arc/escape vector. It's not all or nothing.


Remember, the officer told Hux that all of the turbo lasers had been destroyed.





Quote:
And again, Finn had destroyed the TIE launch command tower before they had left the hangar bay. That could throw a damper in quickly launching the other TIEs.


That's a good point. But, there are other launch bays.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Per the RAW, starships only have four fire arcs; there are no dorsal or central.


I used the RAW left fire arc the first time around. @ForbinProject insisted on the ventral arc, so I changed to three dimensional.



Quote:
The deeper issue is, IMO, does it really matter?


Depends.

If you play a game session where the PCs get captured, and they are transferred to the Finalizer in your game. Then they escape in a TIE and try to do the same as what was seen in the movie, then it would matter to your game.



Quote:
For many reasons, I can't even imagine ever using a Resurgent in a game.


I haven't used that many capital craft in my past games--except that WEG adventure where the PCs strive to get out of the dying Victory Class.

But, I'd like to use more of them in future games. Capital ship combat in a game appeals to me.





Quote:
I'll withhold final judgement until I see how it fits with episodes 8 & 9, but as of right now, TFA is easily the worst of the SWU films, AFAIAC.


Wow. Sure, TFA has some flaws, but to even put it into the same category with any of the three prequels is crazy, imo.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForbinProject wrote:
No idea what the right size should be, Or if the size is right what the right number of weapons should be.


The Resurgent is x1.82 (under 3,000 meters) the size of a ISD II.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Sure, TFA has some flaws, but to even put it into the same category with any of the three prequels is crazy, imo.

Hmm. The prequels, oooorrrrr...

The Plothole That Killed The EU.

Yeah, not a hard choice. I never said I thought the prequels were great; I simply find them less annoying than TFA. If nothing else, the prequels provide us with some great concepts to port over into the classic era.

Now, as I said, my opinion may change when I see how E8 & 9 fill in the gaps left by TFA. But for now, on its own, it's underwhelming. There is nothing here that inspires me to want to game in the TFA era, and frankly, since its existence wipes out so much of the post-Endor EU (some of which I really liked), I'm almost inclined to ignore it.

On top of that, the premise behind Star(wars)killer Base was so ridiculous and badly done that the only way I can mentally wrap my head around it is via a crossover with Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so that Starkiller Base can be equipped with Improbability Field Generation technology and an Infinite Improbability Cannon (whose beam passes simultaneously through every point in the known universe).
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Captain Rex
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Resurgent class battlecruiser Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Captain Rex wrote:
You made a mistake. The resurgent armament is


Certainly been known to happen, especially with a post from the month and year the movie came out. At least I would hope there would have been additional information made available in that time. I had not kept up on the information pertaining to this ship. I appreciate you pointing at my errors.

Where do these numbers come from?

Captain Rex wrote:
1500(or 3000)quad heavy Turbolasers
1500(or 3000)heavy ion cannons
30 ventral cannons
60 point defence turrets
60 quad laser cannons


The numbers I have been able to verify are:

Quote:
1,500+ Turbolasers AND ion cannons (The Force Awakens secret Inside the Secret Academy)
? Point-defense turrets (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Point-defense missile emplacements (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Tractor beam projectors (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

2 starfighter wings (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
144 starfighters: TIE/fo and TIE/sf (Episode VII: The Force Awakens)

100 Atmospheric Assault Landers (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
? Ground vehicles (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)
1 Prefabricated ground base (Star Wars: The Force Awakens: Incredible Cross-Sections)

? represents this type of armament is installed, but not how many.


Stats that were incorrect, that I have changed:

Quote:
Crew: 74,000, gunners: XX, skeleton: 9,100/+20
Passengers: 8,130 (Stormtrooper legion)
Cargo: 65,000 metric tons
Consumables: 6 years

Starfighter Compliment: (2) wings of starfighters: 144 TIE/fo and TIE/sf, (100) atmospheric landers.
Ground/Air Compliment: numerous ground vehicles, (1) prefabricated ground base.

XX: variable in place of the number of gunners, until number and type of armaments is figured.


I think I remember how some of the numbers were low for the amount of armaments. I used batteries which was a bank or series of close emplacements, that would work together in their fire area. I think I gave them a +1D to damage, since the Turbolasers have 6D damage. Seems if I remember correctly I calculated a bank/series to be a group of four weapon placements.


Been a while since the last post. Any way I got a question


Does the 1500 mean each or combined for the turbo lasers and ion cannons?Evil or Very Mad
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have the stats of the new TIEs?
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