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Hyperspace Change of Course
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im in the camp that the ship literally accelerates to FTL speeds and the hyperdrive is wht makes this possible. I'll also assert that hyperspace ougjt not to be a "dimension" but rather a state of being that results from traveling beyond a certain speed: the ship interacts with the physical realm differently than it would below the "light barrier."
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Im in the camp that the ship literally accelerates to FTL speeds and the hyperdrive is wht makes this possible. I'll also assert that hyperspace ougjt not to be a "dimension" but rather a state of being that results from traveling beyond a certain speed: the ship interacts with the physical realm differently than it would below the "light barrier."


Maybe the interaction with the physical realm in a different manner can also be described as being in another dimension?
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlikely.

A ship travelling in hyperspace is not trackable in realspace. If it was moving at FTL speeds in realspace (apart from the pretty firm conjecture that it isn't possible), you should get something like Cherenkov radiation. And you only get Cronau radiation when jumping into hyperspace, not continually - which indicates that it is actually another dimension, rather than travelling at FTL speeds through realspace.

Also, blueshift makes it unlikely that you even WANT to travel at speeds approaching FTL speeds for any fraction of time in realspace. The cosmic background radiation will literally cook you when blueshifted far enough, if nothing else will.

However, don't ask me to back that up with math. I suspect we'd have to build that math using Hilbert space math, and ... well, I never got there.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of that matters with proper radiation shielding. Laughing Razz
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Im in the camp that the ship literally accelerates to FTL speeds and the hyperdrive is wht makes this possible. I'll also assert that hyperspace ougjt not to be a "dimension" but rather a state of being that results from traveling beyond a certain speed: the ship interacts with the physical realm differently than it would below the "light barrier."

If that works for you and your SWU, then more power to ya. We all have our individual tolerances for different aspects of disbelief suspension in Star Wars. Some aspects have to make sense to me. The prohibition of FTL travel within realspace is one of those, for a very special reason.

I chose Special Relativity as a paper topic for my high school physics class, which happened to be during a time I was running three Star Wars campaigns. I procrastinated until the night before it was due to really dive into it, and stayed up all night largely plagiarizing this college physics text book my teacher had lent me, two-finger hunt and peck typing because I hadn't had the foresight to take a keyboarding class. And sometime after 4:00am, in my very groggy and cranky mind, everything suddenly clicked into a place and I got it. Eureka! I was able to write my paper's conclusion completely in my own words with a great deal of zest, and he gave me an A, only marking off points for no bibliography.

Ever since then I've felt that ships moving FTL velocities (or even the speed of light) in realspace of my SWU would be a dishonor to that eureka moment of truth when I got Einstein, and to that A in Physics that did rightfully reflect my final understanding but still wasn't really deserved.

Zarn wrote:
Also, blueshift makes it unlikely that you even WANT to travel at speeds approaching FTL speeds for any fraction of time in realspace. The cosmic background radiation will literally cook you when blueshifted far enough, if nothing else will.

However, don't ask me to back that up with math. I suspect we'd have to build that math using Hilbert space math, and ... well, I never got there.

Yes, radiation. I have a degree in mathematics. Even though I never got quite there either, if I got out my college books for a refresher crash-course, I could probably follow a lot of the Hilbert space math, but for love of The Force I'd never actually want to! Some aspects of Special Relativity only takes high school algebra and geometry which I can do easily, but I'm sure no one wants to see even that level of matherbation on the forum so I'll skip it.

Another factor as a ship accelerate into relativistic speeds near the speed of light is the increase in mass a ship experiences relative to a slow moving ship. The increase in relative mass means an increase in inertia, which means that a constant force applied would yield a decreasing acceleration, so the closer you got to the speed of light, the longer it would take to get closer when you would need a quick acceleration (see below). To overcome that you would need an increasing amount of force being applied to accelerate. And either way, it is flat-out impossible for a ship to actually to achieve the speed of light because the ship would have an infinite mass, which would need an infinite force to push it to the threshold. A mass greater than all the mass in the entire universe requiring more energy than exists in the entire universe.

And then with the more well-known time dilation effect, so that the closer you get to the speed of light, the more time you experience relative to planet time, even a quick acceleration to or deceleration from close to the speed of light could be a long slow journey for starship travelers that adds decades to their lives compared to planet time. To minimize this effect, you would have to accelerate very, very fast which would require galaxies worth of energy which gets back into the mass/force problem mentioned above.

Around the time of AotC the EU introduced a starship tech called "relativistic shielding" as a handwave to get around the above issues of acceleration to and the deceleration from the speed of light. It's really a quite absurd tech - They might as well say Puff the magic dragon does it. And it is really quite unnecessary.

Hyperspace being another dimension is such a simple solution. A ship can enter hyperspace from normal sublight speeds and exit back to realspace at normal sublight speeds, thereby completely bypassing relativistic speeds in realspace and thus mass and time increases altogether. And while moving FTL speeds in hyperspace, time passes the same as on planets due to hyperspace having different laws of physics. Star Wars ships never have to get close to relativistic speeds in realspace.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
It would be more accurate to say the long apparent distance, as the possibility remains (and is supported by omission in the RAW) that it is nothing more than an optical illusion.


It wasn't an optical illusion when that ship started to go into hyperspace but rammed into Vader's Star Destroyer instead (Rogue One).

I just went back and double-checked that scene. The Transport that hit Vader's Star Destroyer was still moving at normal space velocities when it hit, and had not yet jumped to hyperspace. After watching the scene several times, I can't see any ships performing the characteristic speed-blur of a jump to hyperspace, which is then terminated by an impact with the ISD.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I think the real thing we have to look at are the limited jump computers... the ones that are good for X number of jumps. Ships with full Nav computers can make the calculations whenever they need... their issue is how many minutes the calculations are good for, and so long as we say "more than five or six" (which we more or less have to), then they're fine.

My thinking is to treat the Limited Jumps number as a measurement of the limits of onboard data storage of the Nav Computer itself. Basically, treat the limited jump nav-comp just like a nav computer, but its data storage is limited to just the immediate area in which it operates, and is preprogrammed with.

EDIT: To clarify, what I'm proposing is that, rather than going through all the mess of preprogramming the appropriate jumps (a process which was never really clarified by WEG to my satisfaction anyway), simply allow an A-Wing with a 2 jump limit to make 2 normal jumps as though it had a standard nav computer (with exceptions made if all it does it jump from point A to point B, then back to point A). Beyond that 2 jump limit (assuming it has jumped from Point B to Point C, and now the pilot wishes to jump further to Point D), the Difficulty goes up one level for every additional jump, representing the ship traveling further and further outside the parameters of the limited amount of nav data that can be fit into its databanks.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
It would be more accurate to say the long apparent distance, as the possibility remains (and is supported by omission in the RAW) that it is nothing more than an optical illusion.


It wasn't an optical illusion when that ship started to go into hyperspace but rammed into Vader's Star Destroyer instead (Rogue One).

I just went back and double-checked that scene. The Transport that hit Vader's Star Destroyer was still moving at normal space velocities when it hit, and had not yet jumped to hyperspace. After watching the scene several times, I can't see any ships performing the characteristic speed-blur of a jump to hyperspace, which is then terminated by an impact with the ISD.


The ship was jumping to hyperspace. Several ships took off. Then Vader's ship appears, blocking the one that was accelerating to enter hyperspace.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it had not YET jumped to hyperspace. It was just moving at normal sublight velocities, the same normal sublight velocities evidenced by every ship prior to jumping to hyperspace in all the films so far. The RAW makes it clear that ships do not stop or turn on a dime; all that happened here is that the Devastator came out of hyperspace too close to the transport for it to decelerate or alter course to avoid a collision.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sat May 18, 2019 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the movies we simply from the outide or from a distance see the ship vanish, like "poof"

However I always envisioned hyperspace to be a mesh grid of "worm holes" crisscrossing the galaxy, and to acces the "worm holes or tubes" then you need so and so speed and most likely an entry point, this may be related to the speed.

Astrogation makes you abel to either access the existing "wormholes and access points" find new ones and or manipulate the speed and time spent in hyperspace.


Not ver scientific but I don't really like to make if overly complicated.....
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But it had not YET jumped to hyperspace.


Exactly. The ships, as shown in the movies, accelerate on a velocity that takes them to lightspeed/entry into hyperspace.

I'm not sure where the disconnect here is.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
But it had not YET jumped to hyperspace.


Exactly. The ships, as shown in the movies, accelerate on a velocity that takes them to lightspeed/entry into hyperspace.

I'm not sure where the disconnect here is.

The disconnect is that you are trying to insist there is acceleration to light speed when all that’s actually there is sublight movement, of ships coming to a new heading at sublight to make the jump to hyperspace.

You are using evidence that doesn’t say what you insist it does, all to justify arbitrarily changing a rule that doesn’t need to be changed, and would actually make gameplay more complicated for no net gain.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thread is called hyperspace change of course.

Does this mean that if you go from Tatooine to Alderaan and then soemtime during the trip you decide to not go to Alderaan after all but changes course while still in hyperapce to go to Bespin?

If so then how you enter hyperspace is not really relevant, rather can you "fly freely" through hyperpace, turn to where wever you want or do you have to astrogate from waypoint to waypoint with the difficulty and level of success adusting the effective distance travelled?

I can not in any way see how you can change course in hyperspace, the hyperspace travel we have seen reminds me a lot of the "tube trains".


I think you have to go from way point to waypoint, and thus in and out of actual hyperspace in order to change your course
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The disconnect is that you are trying to insist there is acceleration to light speed when all that’s actually there is sublight movement, of ships coming to a new heading at sublight to make the jump to hyperspace.


The ships are accelerating at rates not seen in any other part of any of the movies.

What do you think is happening when a ship decides to go into light speed, and then the below is seen on the screen?

@0:57

Clicky, Clicky.





Quote:
You are using evidence that doesn’t say what you insist it does, all to justify arbitrarily changing a rule that doesn’t need to be changed, and would actually make gameplay more complicated for no net gain.


I don't see any change to gameplay. What are you talking about?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
The thread is called hyperspace change of course.

Does this mean that if you go from Tatooine to Alderaan and then soemtime during the trip you decide to not go to Alderaan after all but changes course while still in hyperapce to go to Bespin?


Yes. The very same kind of thing is shown in Rogue One.





Quote:
If so then how you enter hyperspace is not really relevant...


Discussions weave and bob. That discussion grew out of the topic.
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