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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
"I can see Hosnian Prime blowing up from my house" was pretty egregious stuff.


And it's not the first time J.J. Abrams has made that mistake. Remember Star Trek (2009) and Spock seeing the destruction of Vulcan in the sky while he was marooned on Delta Vega, an ice planet located in a totally different star system? (Although, Word of God says that was actually Spock Prime psychically sensing the deaths of large numbers of Vulcans, something that happened in the Original Series in The Immunity Syndrome, the episode where the U.S.S. Intrepid, a Federation starship with an all-Vulcan crew, was destroyed by a giant amoeba. Still pretty jarring, though.)

Tv Tropes wrote:
Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale:
All the planets in the Hosnian System are close enough to be visible in the same frame. At the same time, they are distant enough from each other to be visible more than 2-5 degrees apart in Takodana's sky.

The destruction of the Hosnian System is immediately visible in the skies above Maz Kanata's castle, even though that system is hundreds if not thousands of light years away. While this has been Hand Waved as the light from the explosions making it through hyperspace, the beam manages to: 1) travel interstellar distances in a matter of seconds; 2) be visible (in real time, not as an optical echo) from Kylo Ren's ship in realspace and from Takodana despite being hyperluminal; 3) only split upon entering the Hosnian system. All in all, everything is treated as if distances were comparable to the Earth-Moon system.


Yeah, J.J. Abrams seems constitutionally incapable of understanding that the speed of light isn't infinite and has been referred to as the "speed limit of the Universe" for a reason. If Einstein were still alive, I'd hope he'd kick Abrams in the testicles just on general principle for that. (The awesomeness of seeing Albert Einstein of all people kick someone in the balls would be icing on the cake.)
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for me, it is too much suspension of disbelief. This isn't a cosmological fantasy movie about Egyptian Gods and stuff, in which case I'd be fine with it. Sounds and explosions in space are not noticeable distractions because I don't engage in spaceship combat. But I do engage in looking up at the sky and know very well I can't see cataclysms in other solar systems playing out in nearly real time.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
And it's not the first time J.J. Abrams has made that mistake...

Yeah, J.J. Abrams seems constitutionally incapable of understanding that the speed of light isn't infinite and has been referred to as the "speed limit of the Universe" for a reason.

I don't think it is a mistake like "Oops, me accidentally violated science 'cause me not understand it." I don't believe that JJ is incapable of understanding. I think he just doesn't care. I think it was a conscious, knowing decision for the "hyperlight" energy to be visible all over the galaxy in real time, for dramatic value. Star Wars isn't some elitist niche fandom. More intelligent fans like us are the exception rather than the rule. Keep in mind that your average moviegoer is not going to have any issues with the Starkiller. Your average moviegoer doesn't know that light has a speed. Light is just on or off, bright or dim. Your average moviegoer has a 7th grade reading level and never took a physics class.

Now your average moviegoer may take issue with dialogue establishing that the Resistance fleet is "faster" but nonsensically always stays a constant distance ahead. Your average moviegoer may exclaim, "Maul got cut in half years before the rise of the Empire!" But your average moviegoer may not have a grasp of the distances between star systems and just thinks hyperdrives are in Star Wars because they make a cool effect.

And before you say, "If JJ knows better and did it anyway, then that's worse" keep in mind that you are taking issue with one little aspect of one Star Wars movie in a series of movies all loaded to the brim with scientific inaccuracies. Hyperdrives? Impossible. Repulsorlifts? Impossible. Lightsabers? Impossible. If you could talk with JJ and express dissatisfaction with hyperlight weapons and their visible effects, he could easily counter with a long list of scientific impossibilities already in Star Wars that he didn't make-up. Star Wars moviemakers aren't making any claims that anything in the movies is plausible.

Sutehp wrote:
If Einstein were still alive, I'd hope he'd kick Abrams in the testicles just on general principle for that.
Einstein wrote:
Imagination is more important than knowledge.

I think Einstein would probably enjoy Star Wars for the imagination and entertain value. Star Wars isn't trying to teach science. Star Wars is for fun.

TauntaunScout wrote:
And for me, it is too much suspension of disbelief. This isn't a cosmological fantasy movie about Egyptian Gods and stuff, in which case I'd be fine with it. Sounds and explosions in space are not noticeable distractions because I don't engage in spaceship combat. But I do engage in looking up at the sky and know very well I can't see cataclysms in other solar systems playing out in nearly real time.

TauntaunScout gets to the heart of the matter. Each fan has their individual tolerances for disbelief suspension. TS is speaking to his personal issues, not making objective statements about plausibility.

Some people here may think that artificial gravity field generators in Star Wars don't just generate in a straight line from the generator, but can also magically cast gravity fields upon other objects outside the generator like a D&D spell, and these other objects with artificial gravity can pull back on the generator and things outside of both objects away from the gravity generator. That's absurd fantasy to my personal tolerance for disbelief suspension, but on the other hand I just accept lightsabers without question or any need to even explain how they work with gobbledegook. They just turn on or off with a button. When I create original planets for my Star Wars game they must be scientifically plausible planets, but I just accept the film planets pretty much as is. We each have our own issues with some miracles in Star Wars, but not with other miracles.

I think it is a bit silly to criticize a Star Wars movie maker on the scientific inaccuracy of one one specific thing in a movie.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I think Einstein would probably enjoy Star Wars for the imagination and entertain value. Star Wars isn't trying to teach science. Star Wars is for fun.


This is an important thing to remember, and something I think too many Star Wars fans have forgotten. They want cerebral Star Wars. They want explanations for everything and everyone. They want it all to make sense and meld seamlessly with everything that has existed before.

They forget that the movies are for fun. They don't know how to have fun like so many other people. They think that the only way to have fun is their way.

It's saddening.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't want it to be a science lesson. Just don't want it to be jarring. Seeing all the beams and explosions from everywhere at once was like seeing onscreen an ordinary child pick up an AT-AT and walk around with it on his back.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Don't want it to be a science lesson. Just don't want it to be jarring. Seeing all the beams and explosions from everywhere at once was like seeing onscreen an ordinary child pick up an AT-AT and walk around with it on his back.


I agree. It is jarring on a pretty basic level that needs no real science mastery to appreciate.

Like if a movie had the Queen of England on the balcony of Buckingham Palace on the morning of 9/11 and then get startled because she can see the World Trade Center get hit by a plane.

Some people might believe that you can see across the Atlantic Ocean if you are standing on a really high balcony.
Some people might not immediately remember that when it is morning in England it cannot also be morning in New York.
But I think the numbers are fairly small.

Small enough that we need to get a little bit of in-universe explanation to try to heal the tear in the fabric of suspension of disbelief!

(the hyper-light explanations, to me, are pretty bizarre...but okay...Star Wars... But the casual movie-goer will probably never have that info, or seek it out. So they will just have that lingering...'that was a weird part of the movie' feeling. )
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Small enough that we need to get a little bit of in-universe explanation to try to heal the tear in the fabric of suspension of disbelief!

(the hyper-light explanations, to me, are pretty bizarre...but okay...Star Wars... But the casual movie-goer will probably never have that info, or seek it out. So they will just have that lingering...'that was a weird part of the movie' feeling. )

I think you overestimate the average casual movie-goer. I think the general masses watching Star Wars will not even realize that you can't look up and see planets exploding in other star systems in real time. At least American masses. Star Wars is not a niche franchise for brainy science geeks, or even a somewhat larger group of above average intelligence people like the ones we have hear. If you run the numbers, Star Wars movies could not be a multibillion dollar franchise they are without a lot of monetary support from the general masses who don't feel weird about Starkiller.

The "hyperlight" explanation is not for the masses but instead for us, and no, it doesn't work or everyone. The hyperlight weapon and its damage being seen on Takodana is probably the most disbelief suspension breaking aspect of the film for me too, but mostly because it wasn't in the first six films. Hyperspace, hyperdrives and FTL are fantastic miracles in all Star Wars movies, so hyperlight weapons and the tearing of the space-time continuum of normal space isn't that much of a stretch beyond those preexisting miraculous fantasies. If ships can be impossibly be propelled to FTL speeds, why couldn't energy be also? I really enjoyed TFA so I am motivated to not be too bothered by stuff in it.

Then we have "faster" ships inexplicably never pulling ahead in TLJ, or a live-action character getting cut in half and falling a great distance in a previous film miraculously being alive in a new movie, like in Solo. I know a lot of casual movie-goers and these are the things they ask me about after seeing the films. For TLJ, "faster" is a minor issue for me due to being easily ignorable in a movie with a few big issues. I enjoyed Solo a lot more than TLJ and didn't have much issues with anything else than Maul. I sought out explanations for Maul from Wookieepedia and other fans, and what I got was "Dathomirian magic". Magic in Star Wars! Like when the cartoon Ewoks painted themselves with magical soap to make them invisible, or when 80s TV movie Ewoks movie had a magic ring which could transform a humanoid into a little bird and back. Like in TCW cartoon which had Palpatine and Dooku do some "Sith magic spell" on Yoda across the galaxy.

I have a much bigger issue suspending disbelief in Maul 'magically' being Solo than the "hyperlight" stuff in TFA, but that's just me. We all have our various tolerances for aspects of Star Wars, and so my personal fan explanation is that that was Mauul, not Maul.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the average person knows they don't see it when asteroids hit other planets in our own solar system.

Why is Maul's presence magic? I don't follow the post-1998 EU, still playing catch-up with the old stuff that I never got finished!

I always thought the Ewok movies and show were supposed to be stories told by future generations of Ewoks and the magical elements were fictional additions to mythologies loosely based on real events.

Anyways, back to the point, none of this has to do with letting go of old canon or of my expectations. I don't like the new films (other than R1) because I evaluate them as art objects in and of themselves and I find they fall flat. If they weren't part of the SW franchise, no one would be talking about them 6-12 months after they came out. You know what would have made TFA a lot better? Poe should have died in the TIE Fighter crash. That would have made Finn a much better character. Also, if they didn't keep using dialog to tell us what a great pilot Poe was. That's rookie film making, you want the audience to know he's a great pilot? Just show him doing awesome stuff in an X-Wing.

Star Wars picked up a lot of Kurosawa's ability to advance the story through a character's actions. But after the original trilogy, it seems to have lost that. This has nothing to do with old canon. This is down to evaluating the nuts and bolts of art.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
I always thought the Ewok movies and show were supposed to be stories told by future generations of Ewoks and the magical elements were fictional additions to mythologies loosely based on real events.

That's the way I personally always viewed them for my SWU, but they were canonized in the early 90s. They literally happened as we see them on the screen in the EU, silly magic and all. But unlike with Maul in TCW and Solo, the Ewok TV movies and cartoons have no impact on the real films and can be completely ignored.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Why is Maul's presence magic?

Maul got cut in half and died in TPM. Why is Maul's presence in Solo magic? I'm guessing because near-humans who were cut completely in half at the waist and fell a long distance later coming back to life seems impossible without something ridiculous as magic to explain it. Maul's Legends article has the word magic 4 times, and the Canon article has the word magic 6 times (not counting ILM). I'm not the one making this stuff up.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Also, if they didn't keep using dialog to tell us what a great pilot Poe was. That's rookie film making, you want the audience to know he's a great pilot? Just show him doing awesome stuff in an X-Wing.

They did show Poe doing awesome stuff in an X-Wing. As an appreciator of the art and a customer, you certainly don't have to like dialogue also telling us that Poe was a great pilot, but labeling TFA filmmakers as "rookies" is bashy language that I do not appreciate that here. JJ Abrams was obviously not a rookie. Not even counting TV, before TFA he directed 4 films and wrote 8 movie screenplays going back to 1990. And TFA was cowritten by Lawrence Kasdan, who had a long esteemed career writing many films before TFA, including TESB, RotJ and Raiders of the Lost Ark! Rookie?! I'm pretty sure no actual screenwriters in the world would dare call Lawrence Kasdan a rookie (unless you are a screenwriter).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poe pulled some heavy Gs
and has by far out flown any other star wars character on any screen, movie, TV or animated.
With Hera Syndulla at a good second seeing some of the stuff she pulled in that episode where they got the B win prototype
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say they were rookie filmmakers, I said a specific choice was rookie filmmaking. I make rookie mistakes in miniature painting all the time: I've been at it for 30ish years.

I thought Darth Maul was revealed to have survived and got his lower half replaced by robotics in a cartoon show or something, years ago. There was a LEGO figure of him with robo-legs that came out awhile back. I don't keep too close of track but I thought this was old news for the Solo movie.

I don't remember seeing Poe do any really cool flying stuff, it needs to be tied into story to be memorable: I'm not saying they didn't CGI his spaceship doing crazy acrobatics: that's not the same thing as creating a good flying scene in a movie. The naval battles of TFA and TLJ left me feeling unsatisfied. They didn't build up dramatic tension and resolve it through Poe's X-Wing flying skills, to make me feel like he's a great pilot. Regardless of what the spaceship models were shown to be doing, Luke in ANH and Lando in ROTJ had a real dramatic punch behind their flying that made it seem like they were awesome.

I know most people will disagree but I actually really liked Poe's "on hold" comedic dialogue. The actors really did a good job on that. It was probably the only time I enjoyed the character. Also, I really like it when Leia shot him. That was a cool surprise. I still don't see why Laura Dern couldn't have had a reprogrammed astromech droid pilot the kamikaze ship though. Throw it's life preservation software out, and get on the transport!

Its very difficult to fairly interpret new Star Wars movies as art in and of themselves. The original trilogy was a watershed in the nature of American pop culture. It's unrealistic to think that'll happen again, but that's what's always going to be "looking over the shoulder" of anything with the SW name on it. This is further compounded by how often SW movies are re-watched. Most films aren't put under that kind of a microscope. If you say the same word over and over it starts sounding ridiculous: the same can happen to a movie that gets watched over and over.

I discuss the ups and downs, ins and outs, of pretty much any movie, all day. I can articulate why I feel what I do when I watch a movie, but that doesn't make my feelings about a film more valid than someone else's. But my point is, clinging to the old EU is not the basis for any of it. At least not for me.

There have been cases (mostly miniature related) where clinging to the old is what keeps me from enjoying the new. Instead of banging my head against a wall, I have thankfully gained the wisdom to stop trying to make the new games like the old, and just go out and collect the old stuff that I've never stopped wanting. Because no amount of new stuff will satisfy the desire for those specific old things.

I'm kind of like that with the movies. I go and see them all in the theater but it takes a special one indeed to make it into the DVD pile. This is not limited to SW: many well liked franchises I only own parts of on DVD, as a conscious choice. Those franchises don't have a big EU for me to be caught up in either. The EU is not the driving factor in my criticism of films. The Alien franchise is the only exception to this. I really think Alien 3 was a mistake, partly due to the Dark Horse comics.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:

I don't remember seeing Poe do any really cool flying stuff, it needs to be tied into story to be memorable: I'm not saying they didn't CGI his spaceship doing crazy acrobatics: that's not the same thing as creating a good flying scene in a movie.


The first time I watched TFA I was with my teen daughter (big SW fan like me).

When Poe was referred to as the best pilot in the Resistance I was saying 'That remains to be seen' (my own internal monologue).

The scene where the First Order attacks Maz's temple, and the X-Wings come racing in over the water was pretty thrilling. My daughter and I glanced at each other with that glee that comes with a mutual recognition of a cool scene.

There is a sequence that comes next where during a panning shot of the battle, there is one X-Wing that weaves in and out of view, blasting an improbable number of enemies.
It is revealed that that fighter is being piloted by Poe.

My daughter and I shared another excited glance in the theater. In that moment, Dameron's reputation as a galaxy-class pilot was confirmed.

Smile

Now, I understand if this is just CGI crazy acrobatics in your opinion; but for us, the timely rescue was enough story and emotional weight, coupled with his apparent nonchalance in dialogue while doing it to satisfy requirements!!!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TauntaunScout wrote:
Because no amount of new stuff will satisfy the desire for those specific old things.

That's great general advice for everyone. Thanks.

TauntaunScout wrote:
I thought Darth Maul was revealed to have survived and got his lower half replaced by robotics in a cartoon show or something, years ago.

The lower half being replaced by robotics came after Maul survived. The robotics are not how he initially survived. He had to survive first to get to the point of getting robotics. And it wasn't just getting his legs cut off like Anakin (People in real life have survived that trauma). Maul survived getting cut through his stomach, intestines and spine. Maul was a Dathomirian which is an offshoot of a near-human species that resulted from human-Zabrak hybridization, which means they are even nearer to human than other near-humans. It is extremely unbelievable that anyone with that near-human anatomy could survive being violently disemboweled then falling a great distance. He supposedly survived bisection and the fall through sheer hatred, willpower, and magic. Then he got robotics to replace his lower half.

In 1999 after Maul died, Lucas was asked in an interview why did he kill Maul or least why did he have him cut him in half, precluding a future return. Lucas said that if Maul wasn't cut in half, then everyone would be expecting his return and be disappointed when it didn't happen. That later made sense since Maul wasn't the type to lead a separatist rebellion against the Republic, so Dooku replaced him. Lucas cut Maul in half specifically to make it impossible for him to return... and then reneged on that less than 13 years later.

TauntaunScout wrote:
There was a LEGO figure of him with robo-legs that came out awhile back. I don't keep too close of track but I thought this was old news for the Solo movie.

Oh you're right, it is old news. Maul came back to life six years ago with Lucas's approval. Lucas's SW movies were done, and the Disney deal was in the works, so he saw no reason not to impossibly bring him back to life. I thought it was as stupid then as I do now, but I didn't care then because it happened in a silly kid's cartoon that had already been contradicting the films for three and half years. It was easily ignorable. Now Maul's magical resurrection has been brought into a live action Star Wars movie that I otherwise love. That's the difference - The impossible resurrection of Maul that occurred 6 years ago is now freshly film canon.

If you don't have a problem with it, great! If you can suspend disbelief that someone getting violently disemboweled and falling a great distance could somehow survive, more power to you! If so, I am a little jealous because you have something I don't have.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Its very difficult to fairly interpret new Star Wars movies as art in and of themselves. The original trilogy was a watershed in the nature of American pop culture... I can articulate why I feel what I do when I watch a movie, but that doesn't make my feelings about a film more valid than someone else's.

See I only said the word "art" because I was acknowledging the subjectiveness of fans liking Star Wars films, not to give you another thing to criticize. Cinema is art. That is a factual, objective statement. The value or quality of each work of art is the subjective part. The new Star Wars movies are art, but not necessarily good art for all viewers. But point taken on your subjective statement that you personally find it difficult to even interpret them as art.

TauntaunScout wrote:
I didn't say they were rookie filmmakers, I said a specific choice was rookie filmmaking.

OK but in this case it is still a sensational statement about non-rookie creators of a SW film (including the venerable Lawrence Kasdan!). Part of what you are calling a rookie mistake also exists in ANH, and the thing you are saying doesn't exist in TFA actually does, so your sensational criticism is factually incorrect on top and thus has multiple qualities of being what I consider to be bashing language...

In SW:ANH, Lucas wrote:
BEN: Most of the best freighter pilots are to be found here...

HAN: Well, that's the trick, isn't it? And it's going to cost you something extra. Ten thousand in advance.
LUKE: Ten thousand?! We could almost buy our own ship for that!
HAN: But who's going to fly it, kid! You?
LUKE: You bet I could! I'm not such a bad pilot myself! We don't have to sit here and listen...

Here is dialogue establishing Han and Luke as good pilots before that is shown in the films. Han is among the "best" and his services are expensive, and Luke is comparable. There is also other dialogue in the film before it is shown. But this was only Lucas' third feature film. What a rookie mistake, right?

If you are a filmmaker with a long filmography of films, I'd be interested in watching them and paying attention to your lack of "rookie filmmaking". If not then you are just another fan, and you saying you yourself make rookie mistakes painting miniatures is not in any way comparable to you saying professional millionaire career film makers are making rookie filmmaking mistakes.

TauntaunScout wrote:
Regardless of what the spaceship models were shown to be doing, Luke in ANH and Lando in ROTJ had a real dramatic punch behind their flying that made it seem like they were awesome... The original trilogy was a watershed in the nature of American pop culture. It's unrealistic to think that'll happen again, but that's what's always going to be "looking over the shoulder" of anything with the SW name on it.
Quote:
HAN to Lando: I just said you were a fair pilot.

No, the new movies aren't going to the match the piloting dramatic punch of Luke in the Battle of Yavin. No movie has, including any Star Wars sequels. I'm a big Star Wars nerd so I love Lando, the Battle of Endor, and RotJ, but Lando and Wedge are only supporting characters and the space battle in that movie hardly even compares to drama of Luke in ANH. The most dramatic piloting thing Lando did in RotJ was escape the fire in time. Dramatically the kill shot on Death Star II had nothing on ANH and we had a supporting character escape the Death Star as the final climax, which was after the main drama of Vader giving his life to kill the Emperor and save Luke (and Luke escaping). TPM has a better constructed climax than RotJ.

RotJ's piloting drama is not in the same league as ANH. No, TFA's piloting drama isn't either, but Poe is a bit more main character than Lando and I find TFA to be a bit more pilot-dramatic than RotJ. By you bashing TFA and elevating RotJ's piloting drama to the level of ANH, you seem to be supporting my hypothesis about the "nostalgia goggles" that we older Star Wars fans tend have. I have them too but I don't deny it.

TauntaunScout wrote:
I don't remember seeing Poe do any really cool flying stuff, it needs to be tied into story to be memorable: I'm not saying they didn't CGI his spaceship doing crazy acrobatics: that's not the same thing as creating a good flying scene in a movie. The naval battles of TFA and TLJ left me feeling unsatisfied. They didn't build up dramatic tension and resolve it through Poe's X-Wing flying skills, to make me feel like he's a great pilot.
Dredwulf60 wrote:
The first time I watched TFA I was with my teen daughter (big SW fan like me).

When Poe was referred to as the best pilot in the Resistance I was saying 'That remains to be seen' (my own internal monologue).

The scene where the First Order attacks Maz's temple, and the X-Wings come racing in over the water was pretty thrilling. My daughter and I glanced at each other with that glee that comes with a mutual recognition of a cool scene.

There is a sequence that comes next where during a panning shot of the battle, there is one X-Wing that weaves in and out of view, blasting an improbable number of enemies.
It is revealed that that fighter is being piloted by Poe.

My daughter and I shared another excited glance in the theater. In that moment, Dameron's reputation as a galaxy-class pilot was confirmed.

Smile

Now, I understand if this is just CGI crazy acrobatics in your opinion; but for us, the timely rescue was enough story and emotional weight, coupled with his apparent nonchalance in dialogue while doing it to satisfy requirements!!!

Yes, thanks. TFA had piloting dramatics for sure. No, not ANH-level, but about equal to RotJ-level. If a fan doesn't like TFA anyway they don't want to see it so they won't. I don't have any problem in any of the films with dialogue speaking to piloting skill, as long as I get to see it in action and it serves the drama of the film, I'm satisfied. The criticism of there shouldn't be dialogue speaking to piloting ability comes across like one of those, "...and another thing, and another thing.." laundry-list bash-fests I've seen so much of over the years.

The bottom line is, it is one thing to say "I personally don't like this movie because of this aspect", and quite another thing to say, 'These highly successful non-rookie professional career filmmakers make rookie mistakes according to some non-filmmaker fan.' If you can't tell the difference between these two types of things, then my general advice to you is to just stick with judging the art from your subjective view. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, this is just going to go in a circle. When a person can hand-wave the acceptance of Maul surviving, yet complains about piloting ability and how a character is described in The Force Awakens (or The Last Jedi), then they are not someone who will ever change their mind.

Nor will they be able to change the mind of people who enjoyed the new Star Wars films...even from those of us who originally saw Star Wars when it came out in '77. Some of us "old fans" can actually enjoy the new movies and don't put on our nostalgia goggles (nice one on that one Whill) when we go to see the new Star Wars films.
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TauntaunScout
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can go around and around about the details and parsing out terminology all day. My point is my dislike of the new films has nothing to do with my clinging to established EU canon. I was never that big into the EU, except for West End miniatures and RPG supplements. I can pretty much nail down what parts of each movie I liked and what parts I didn't and the old EU had nothing to do with it.
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