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ImpSB Sector Group Organization: How To Improve It
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm definitely going to borrow this for my current solo games. Once the characters start stirring up enough trouble for the Empire in a particular sector or systems, the Empire might divert a task force to go and handle things.

I'm thinking for one of them of using a modified Patrol Taskforce for an Imperial Inquisitor. What do you think?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I think I'm definitely going to borrow this for my current solo games. Once the characters start stirring up enough trouble for the Empire in a particular sector or systems, the Empire might divert a task force to go and handle things.

I'm thinking for one of them of using a modified Patrol Taskforce for an Imperial Inquisitor. What do you think?

Feel free; that's why I posted it. The whole idea is to break down the numbers listed for the Imperial Navy in the ImpSB into something a bit more manageable. The numbers listed are the sort of thing where the ships could reasonably be far enough apart that the characters might have to plot an escape route that avoids most of the Taskforce's ships, but as a consequence puts them close enough to one that they have to make a fight of it. Using the example of the Patrol Taskforce, the characters might be able to avoid the Heavy Cruiser and the Strike Cruisers, but would have to pass near enough to one or two of the Raider Corvettes to come under fire, and would have to make it a quick one before the Cruisers can move up to support the Corvettes.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm giving this a bump because I recently got into a pretty extended discussion about the Sector Group Organization chapter over on the Star Wars D6 Facebook page. The main point it boiled down to is that WEG contradicted themselves so much that the chapter becomes very difficult to refer to as a reliable source. So what I've got it in mind to do is a complete re-write of the Organization Chapter, with the goal of removing as many of the contradictions and practical implausibilities as possible, as well as reorganizing the various smaller units into something more usable by GMs (and more consistent with what we see in WEG's various adventure scenarios). I'm also going to include Stormtroopers, CompForce and Starfighter Command, pulling information from Rules of Engagement, my COMPNOR expansion write-up and the TIE Fighter article in the Adventure Journal.
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Starbeard
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be a very worthwhile project!

I've also been frustrated with wanting to use this chapter but not being able to do so very easily.

I think one good way to implement Imperial sector organization is by using it to force the players to strategize their missions and approaches. Make them obstacles to avoid rather than targets to engage with. For example, a while ago I drummed up a short X-Wing Miniatures campaign, where the players collectively ran a small Rebel base in some fringe sector (I used a Classic Traveller subsector map). Turn by turn they have to do the squadron-based wargame thing—send individual ships to scout systems, monitor Imperial transmissions, plan raids on Imperial convoys and prisons, protect their hidden base—with the main goal of locating and capturing/destroying an Imperial Big Wig's personal frigate before the time limit runs out.

The thing is, X-Wing is meant for small starfighter skirmishes only. There's simply no way you can add anything larger than a Corvette or two. The way I got around this is simply to use the larger Imperial ships as impassable obstacles. If you fly your raiding party into a shipyard and there's a Star Destroyer stationed there, then you automatically retreat and your ships might get destroyed before they can escape. So the players can't engage the the stuff that's too big for them to handle, but they have to monitor and predict their movements in order to plan their objectives around them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, in broad strokes, here are a few of the changes I'm thinking of making...

-In general, I'm going to keep WEG's basic unit sizes (9 man squads, with 4 = 1 organizational steps going up), but a lot of things are going to be examined with a very critical eye and thrown out if they don't make sense.

-I'm going to move the Company-level support elements up to Battalion level (which is in keeping with most modern militaries), and Battalion Command can then chop a portion of those support elements to Company or Platoon Command.

-WEG is somewhat disjointed as to the role of Non-Commissioned Officers in the Army. It specifically states in the Organization chapter that the Empire depends heavily on its Sergeants, but then practically ignores them at Company-level and above. I'm on the fence as to whether or not I should give non-coms more attention or revert to something along the lines of the Soviet Red Army model, heavily dependent on commissioned officer, while sergeants were little more than senior draftees given additional training.

-The ImpSB is also rather vague about how the Empire meets its personnel needs. It implies that the Imperial military is an all-volunteer force, yet a draft would also be consistent with an authoritarian regime.

-I've done a lot of reading on the Renegade Legion universe, which IMO does a much better job of defining how large-scale units would work in a sci-fi space opera setting. At the Legion / Division level, they have a unit that has little or no parallel in the WEG OB chapter: the garrison legion. The garrison legion is distinct from other legion types in that it is relatively immobile ad equipped as a defensive formation (lots of air-defense artillery, with infantry units used to assist in policing of a planetary population. I'm going to incorporate this concept into the Organization chapter as the Line Legion / Line Corps.

-The Line Legion / Corps featured in the ImpSB is stated by WEG as being not up to the level of combat needed to counter current Rebel strengths, with many being upgraded to Assault units. Instead, I'm going to take the Line order of battle and use it to create Light Infantry units, whose lack of heavy equipment allows them to fight dispersed in rough terrain, as well as be much more strategically mobile.

-There isn't really a place for walkers in the order of battle, so I'm planning on incorporating them into Assault units, equipping the Armored units in Assault formations.

-I'm also going to include Artillery and/or Aviation assets (air speeders) at the Regimental and Legion levels. Corps will retain their TIE Ground Support Wing along with speeder wings and heavy artillery.

-I'm strongly considering folding Stormtroopers and CompForce into each other, as well. I haven't fully sorted out how I want to do it, but the parallels between the two (intense loyalty, large numbers, refusal to back down when taking casualties,etc) can't be ignored. Basically, I'm thinking that CompForce serves as the non-Clone element of the expanded Stormtrooper Corps. CompForce Assault uniforms would swap over to the Intervention units from my COMPNOR re-write.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also going to standardize the unit classification, and bring it more in line with modern usage. Here's a list of terms, with brief descriptions:
    Squad / Section - Smallest official unit on the OB, composed of 8 troopers, and commanded by a sergeant. Squad refer to infantry units, and Section refers to vehicle mounted units. Squads may be broken down into Teams composed of 2-5 troopers, and Sections composed of multiple vehicles may be broken down into Elements of 1-3 vehicles (depending on composition).

    Platoon / Lance / Line - 4 Squads, commanded by a Lieutenant and Sergeant. Platoon = Infantry, Lance = Vehicles, Line = Artillery

    Company / Troop / Battery - 4 Platoons, commanded by a Captain and a small Command Team. Company = Infantry, Troop = Vehicles, Battery = Artillery

    Battalion / Squadron - 4 Companies, plus an ad hoc Company of Artillery, Recon and Combat Engineers, commanded by a Major and a robust Support Element. Squadron = Vehicles

    Brigade / Regiment - 4 Battalions, plus Support Elements, commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel. Brigades = Units composed of multiple different Battalion Types, Regiments = Units composed of a uniform type.

    Legion - 4 Brigades, plus Support Elements including Aviation and Artillery, commanded by a High Colonel

    Corps - 4 Legions, plus Artillery, Aviation and CompForce Auxiliaries. Commanded by a Major General

    System Army - 4 Corps, generally an organizational and administrative formation only, although Rebel successes have led to operational planning for the potential of operations at a System Army level. Commanded by a Lieutenant General

    Sector Army - Generally, the full Army strength assigned to a given sector. Can be as little as a single Corps, or composed of dozens of System Armies, depending on the needs of the Sector in question. Commanded by a Sector General; in quiet sectors, this is a title bestowed on the Moff, while in more restive sectors, it will be a separate position.

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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I can't wait to read this. Good luck with this, CRM!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for vehicle sections being 1-3, what's your thinking on this one? In general, it's not a good idea to have a single element operating on its own. If the vehicle is damaged (SW equivalent of flat tires, stuck in a ditch, hydro-lock, etc), then the crew are basically dead in the water. In general, two is the "atomic form" for operational effectiveness.

In the case of vehicles, the partner vehicle can be used as a recovery element.

Whatever you consider the smallest possible element to be (whether thats a fire team, or a whole company or whatever), you'll want that element to have reasonable means of solving a wide variety of issues.

But operating all alone is a big military no-no.

Caveat: a single vehicle crew can have it's own assignment, but generally, friendly elements are within seconds (not minutes) away if needed.

If support is minutes out, consider increasing the size of the element and or adding some equipment options that solve asymetrical (or logistical) problems that arise in the field.

Elite troops can bend these rules, of course.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
As for vehicle sections being 1-3, what's your thinking on this one?

My thinking is that a Section covers everything from the full vehicle crew of an AT-AT to 5-6 scouts on speeder bikes. Per RotJ, we see that scouts are commonly split up into pairs that aren't necessarily in a position to immediately support each other, even though there are at least eight of them.

A lot of it would depend on what is meant by "split." A lot of tabletop games require squad members to stay within a certain distance of each other, or the squad is considered to be split. In your experience, how close would vehicles have to operate to not be "split up?"
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At what point is it no longer worth it to give specific personnel numbers for units? I'm thinking the stuff I posted at the beginning of this thread would suffice for GMs running small-unit battles, and maybe at the Company level, as well. Above that, I'm thinking it would be best to just stick with nominal strengths and ranges, such as saying that Battalions range from 800-1,100 personnel.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes sense to have more fluid ranges for unit-level personnel. In "real life" the only element that is more or less immutable is the squad. A platoon is basically more than one squad, while a company is more than one platoon. HQ elements are usually found at battalion level (such as your medics, commo, mechanics, etc). But even this is flexible. For example, in the US army, MPs organize at the company level, so each company looks more like a mini battalion, with a headquarters platoon, which includes the supply staff, admin staff, mechanics, etc.

As for distance apart, that would depend on how much the chain of command trusts the soldiers, and how much the soldiers trust each other. Movement speed can affect what is considered reasonable, as well as what forms of communication are available.

Scouts, in particular, may be able to stretch the "squad coherency" concept to farther distances than other troops.

But in general, you would want a fire team leader (or equivalent) in each sub-element, if possible (which it isnt always). You might consider adding a corporal rank or have a few different grades of sergeant rank to account for the difference between a team leader, a squad leader and a platoon sergeant. Or you could use officers in place of sergeants, if it feels more apropriate to the feel you are going for.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in general, you can go as small as you want, though a competent commander will make sure he is not deploying inadequate forces.

A good rule of thumb might be: the smaller the element the smaller the missions it can complete, and the larger the mission given to that element, the more priority that element is given for support (such as CAS, artillery, QRF, etc.).
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guardian_A cooked up some stats for ISB Stormtroopers, they might almost be more appropriate for regular Stormtroopers than regular Stormtroopers:

Quote:
Name: ISB Stormtrooper
Species: Human
Sex: Male
Dexterity: 3D
Blaster 4D, Brawling Parry 4D, Dodge 4D
Knowledge: 2D
Alien Species 2D, Intimidation 2D, Law Enforcement 3D, Willpower 2D+2
Mechanical: 2D
Perception: 2D
Hide 2D, Investigation 2D+1, Search 2D+2, Sneak 3D
Strength: 2D
Brawling 3D
Technical: 2D
Security 2D+1
Move: 10
Equipment: Stormtrooper Armor (+2D physical, +1D energy, -1D to Dexterity and related skills), Blaster Pistol (4D), Blaster Rifle (5D)


Kind of interesting, the idea of folding Stormtrooper Corps into COMPNOR, the only issue is how much that beefs up COMPNOR's power level and influence with regards to them being at odds with the regular military.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
Guardian_A cooked up some stats for ISB Stormtroopers, they might almost be more appropriate for regular Stormtroopers than regular Stormtroopers:


Is this a typo? How can a set of stats "be more appropriate for regular Stormtroopers than regular Stormtroopers"? Regular Stormtroopers are regular Stormtroopers.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of the thought that regular Stormtroopers are way under powered based on a lot of their fluff. The only thing that makes them look like garbage are the films...

I've switched around stats for basic Stormtroopers and I'm always looking for a better set to use.
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