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Boomer
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 688
Location: Terra Sol
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 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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You mean just break the laws of physics? Hell no, Trek never should have crossed that line, Wars shouldn't start either.
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: |
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To answer the origional question, assuming a very good holograph, ala Total Recall; I'd describe to the PCs what they see and let them decide how long it takes to figure it out. Maybe after 20 blaster bolts go right through them and three grenades have done nothing to them, and they've received no casualties, they'd start to question.
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Last edited by Volar the Healer on Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| ...like anti-gravity and hyperspace don't allready brake the laws of physics? |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:53 am Post subject: |
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...let alone the Force, lightsabers, and the like. It's been said elsewhere: It's the GM's universe; they have final say over what goes and doesn't go in their own campaigns. If they can come up with a plausible scenario and they want to run it in their own little corner of the universe, that's their prerogative. They may run into problems when they bring it out of that little corner. At some point (with whatever concept you've come up with) you're going to run into people who will tell you it's just impossible, and that's the way it is. You as the GM are going to have to decide if you can feasibly explain and introduce something into your campaign, then stick by your decision.
Although I've never personally seen any really good holograms used in the manner that was originally spoken of... |
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Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 11921
Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Boomer wrote: | | You mean just break the laws of physics? Hell no, Trek never should have crossed that line, Wars shouldn't start either. |
But what are the laws of physics? That is something we don't truely know despite what we believe. We do know some of them, yes. But there is always a point where someone comes up with something that we're told can't be possible according to the laws of physics then either they, the someone who came up with it, or someone years later proves that their work was right and we get a whole knew law added to what we already know.
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Boomer wrote: | | You mean just break the laws of physics... |
Sure, go right ahead. "Laws" what a joke! "Best Guess" is more like it.
In a universe where starfighters make noise as they travel through vacuum, repulsorlifts are reactionless, and Jedi can do magick - it's safe to ignore the "laws" of physics.
Somewhere in "a thousand thousand worlds" someone can build a good hologram. Have a good time!
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: Re: realistic holograms |
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| entropy wrote: | Galaxy Guide 10: Bounty Hunters
Page 88 under the description of the Doubler Suit:
| Quote: | Model: Modified Corelidyne Holographic Projector Doubler Suit
Type: Human-sized three-dimensional imaging system
Skill: Computer Programming/repair (Difficult difficulty to properly operate doubler imaging application; if the programming roll fails, the flaws will be immediately evident the first time the doubler image is used)
Cost: 30,000
Availability: 4, X
Game Notes: Once programmed, an Easy Mechanical roll will allow projection of a lifelike image duplicating the character. The image can be projected in any direction, up to 10 meters away. The operating charactershould secretly inform the gamemaster of attempts to project the holo image, specifying location and distance relative to the true individual. If a successful roll is made, all others will see the apparent image of original character projected as previously indicated. Viewers must make a Very Difficult Perception or Search roll to discover the true nature of the image (at a range of 50 meters or more; for every 10 meters closer to the target, reduce the difficulty by one level).
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So what I am seeing here is:
Good holograms are very expensive, very hard to get, very hard to program, and not very effective closer than 20 meters. The sighting distance chart for noticing the fake would be:
10m Very Easy
20m Easy
30m Moderate
40m Difficult
50m Very Difficult |
Yup. I was basing my idea off of something like that....
What would you apply as a penalty, for additional holoprojectors working in concert to make the hologram more 'lifelike'?
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entropy
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Yup. I was basing my idea off of something like that....
What would you apply as a penalty, for additional holoprojectors working in concert to make the hologram more 'lifelike'?
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I'm not sure extra projectors would help a lot for the same image. If they did different parts of the image, I think you'd be worse off, since the character noticing one part is fake is likely to get a bonus on identifying the others as fake too.
If you're interested in making it more realistic, include a droid brain controlling it, and make it appear to react to what the characters do. for even more believable illusions, include an obvious thermal component (extreme heat or cold), and use something to generate it. A hologram of flames filling a section of corridor, with genuine heat from some other source, would give a penalty of two or three difficulty levels to the check, and probably keep the PCs from coming within 20 meters of it anyway (unless one of them was a firefighter in their backstory or something, then I'd give him some type of check to recognize the inconsistencies and negate the bonus).
But if you're set on using multiple projectors to increase the realism, I think +5 difficulty per extra projector, with a maximum of +15 would be reasonable. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Hey, that's not a bad idea. Especially working in other technology and sources to add realism to the hologram. You might have to have added difficulty for each extra system you bring in to add some stimulus to the hologram's overall effect... But that might be counteracted by the droid brain. Not a bad operational concept- if they can pull it off. |
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | At some point (with whatever concept you've come up with) you're going to run into people who will tell you it's just impossible, and that's the way it is. |
That is true! It is impossible to sail around the world, it's impossible to build a transcontinental railroad, it's impossible to build a heavier than air flying machine, it's impossible to fly to the moon, it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light - Hah! Some people just don't understand! Nothing is impossible! It's just a matter of figuring out how. The Bible says "Nothing is impossible for them. Whatever they can concieve, they can do!
Years ago, Buck Rogers imagined impossible things; these included atomic rockets, radio communications, and laser weapons. Today Star Wars imagines impossible things; faster than light travel, holograms and common interactions with aliens.
For those who don't know, free standing holograms were displayed at a computer convention three years ago.
For those who do know, we recognize Star Wars is our people conceiving today of what our engineers will build tommorrow. Let the psudo-scientists say it's impossible. We know better!
The best view of what is possible I ever heard was from the movie War of the Worlds (the good one from 1950, not the recent junky rip off) when the Marine commander asks "Is that possible?" the hero responds "If they do it, it is."
I'll take my cue from Albert Einstein who said "Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Star Wars is not limited by the "science" of today, it defines the science of tommorrow.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Volar the Healer wrote: |
I'll take my cue from Albert Einstein who said "Imagination is more important than knowledge".
Star Wars is not limited by the "science" of today, it defines the science of tommorrow. |
Just a little factoid: a boy went to see ANH with his father, a doctor. After the movie, the boy asked his dad, "Wouldn't be cool if they could use lasers for surgery and stuff?" That father went on to develop the first laser for eye surgery.
Cool, huh? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | Hey, that's not a bad idea. Especially working in other technology and sources to add realism to the hologram. You might have to have added difficulty for each extra system you bring in to add some stimulus to the hologram's overall effect... But that might be counteracted by the droid brain. Not a bad operational concept- if they can pull it off. |
Thanks.
What i was thinking of, for why i would have this, was.
An imperial officer, is given the task to make a trap to lure in rebels, that is inescapable... He starts by setting a space station as his base of ops. He then makes it into a 4 'ring' system, with 5 corridors from each ring to the next (the outer ring has the only docking clamps). Between the second and third ring (above and below) the corridors, are cement and water mix, in shielded compartments (to avoid scanners). In the center is his 'supposed inner sanctum'. He has droids around the place (from ring 4 to 1) but not in the main chamber. TO make it look real (after luring in the rebels)..
When they get to the inner sanctum, he waits to see what they do (as he has already fled to his ship). He is watching via 20 or so really hidden cameras (say 28+ on the hide roll), being transmitted in old school (to starwars not us) UHF, which is practically a heroic+ roll to detect via normal comms/sensors. And is also impossible to jam (according to the corellian trilogy old school radionics transmissions WILL work through jamming).
He is transmitting a live feed on a seperate system (higher bandwidth) to 6 seperate holoprojectors configured to mimic him in a VERY lifelike way, along with audio components (though to those who smell he will seem as not there). If they shoot him, or otherwise show they recognise he is not 'real', he kicks in his traps...
Step 1 would be to have all 5 blast doors into the room lock (none have controls for on that side).
His second, kicks in at round 3, which is to set up a jamming field that encompasses the inner sanctum and the first ring.
The third one, activates in round 5, which kicks in the mixing of the cement thereby blocking the 2nd and third rings.
The forth, activates in round 7, which is to turn off the gravity control.
The last kicks in at round 9, which is to have ALL the lights get turned off....
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, granted it was over a comm channel, so it was probably the grainy images we're used to seeing for holograms. But in the X-Wing: Wraith Squadron series they had one of their pilots imitate an Imp Captain. They gave him some makeup additions, but then rigged it so that when they used visual communications, a programmed hologram was projected over his body which followed his movements. It was real-looking enough to fool the Imps... perhaps it might work for your purposes. Plus, it is also a possibility that the resolution for something like this would be greatly increased by the simple fact that rather than being sent in encryption over battle comm channels or by hypercomm, it's being projected straight as-is in the same room as the source. I'm sure that some of the graininess could be attributed to lag... I mean, if you look at the holo ads on Coruscant, they're pretty tight. Plus, I don't imagine that holodramas would be so popular if they were all of the same grainy quality as the communications holos are. I dunno... just speculating here, but I think they're points to consider. |
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