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jtanzer
Lieutenant
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 78
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 Posted: Mon May 20, 2024 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | This feels more “real” than using the RAW’s modification/upgrade rules, by which I mean, a character in-universe would say “it’s a DH-44 pistol with [insert upgrade/s here]”, not “it’s a DH-44 modified with +2 to damage.” |
The Alexandrian wrote about this problem and while he doesn't say it explicitly, he implies that you don't need a formal crafting/modification system to justify the statline. In fact, pg. 65 of the 1E rulebook details how PCs can customize their ships, and suggests that the gamemaster should permit the PCs to modify their equipment as well in a similar manner. While 2E is more complex (IMO unnecessarily so), pg. 87 gives rules for blasters with a limit of +1d+2 above base damage value.
SWTOR has a similar system, and it doesn't really do anything useful. The reason why is because you can get similar, or better, equipment as rewards for storyline quests and other content. As a result, equipment modification doesn't really matter. Now, if you couldn't get better gear except through modifying existing gear, then it would have more value. Then, new gear, rather than being strictly better, could open up additional possibilities. However, this doesn't really fit very well into SW.
Personally, I don't see the value in the modification system. It doesn't do anything that the original systems couldn't do as well, and players are unlikely to treat the items created as special. Now, that's not to say that you can't make it work. As I stated previously, it doesn't fit SW, but it does fit the survival/post-apocalypse genre, where you're unlikely to find better equipment. The systems put into a game should support and reinforce that game, rather than being simply tacked on for the sake of 'being there', which, unfortunately, this appears to be.
Sources:
The Alexandrian: Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items
Razbuten: Crafting is (Kinda) Pointless
Adam Millard - The Architect of Games: Building Better Crafting Systems
Game Ghost: Your Crafting System probably sucks.
Playlist: Game Design - Crafting Mechanics |
In case you missed my previous post, here it is. My beef with crafting systems is that you have to make it one of the central pillars of your game in order to make it work. This is what killed WoW's crafting system. Originally, it was a central pillar of the game and economy, with the high end gear being a rare drop from raids. This made acquisition of that gear hard and therefore a mark of status. However, when Blizzard started adding gear to quest rewards, they effectively made crafting worthless.
The problem with adding a crafting/upgrading system to SWD6, as I see it, is a systemic one. While ships are meant to be upgraded, there's little difference between a regular blaster pistol with an upgraded barrel that gives it 5D damage, and a regularly heavy blaster pistol. Similarly, putting an optic on a pistol to give it +1D to blaster skill is little different from a pistol that has been upgraded to give it +1D to blaster skill. In the end, it's just fluff. Handing the GM, who already has a lot of stuff to juggle, yet another system, is less than optimal in my opinion. This is also why I don't always see eye-to-eye with CRMcNeill. While I do like the systems he builds, my priorities are different enough that I view them as less useful than tables that allow me to generate quests, bases, or NPCs.
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The GM runs a living setting. Players unstick their own s***. |
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 411
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2024 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| raithyn wrote: | After some life events I'm finally working on this again. I have some updates that I will hopefully post one day and a few mockups of cards on Dropbox. Since I mainly run one shots with players unfamiliar with the D6 system, I use a lot of game aids.
Any feedback on the design is welcome. What about the item is immediately clear? What requires some work to decipher? Do the upgrade slots make sense? Is the text easy or hard to read? Etc.
The stats on these cards are for 1e skills so you won't see an advanced skill listed. That's an easy change to make a 2e card instead. The disruptor is based on the Carbon Gray Magnetic D6 shotgun. |
Love the cards and love the icons showing the upgrade slots!
At first glance - several were clear, and a few were not - but I think the players could learn them quickly. Text was good, layout etc.
The graphic for the overload switch - looks like a tech crate or something.
Personally, I would not include an icon for an upgrade that is not available - like if the Disruptor only is eligible for the firing chamber, I would only include that icon.
Side note - as I mentioned before I am working on a similar system - and trying to find a decent term for the equal part on melee weapon as 'firing chamber' - what would I call the tech/working part of a vibro weapon.
Again - I think modular upgrades are a great idea - as it allows for flavorful variations on gear, and as part of an ongoing game - gives players ideas on gear they can acquire (because not every PC has a character who is a tech guy - but they might know an NPC who owes them a favor).
Thanks for sharing.
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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raithyn
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2024 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback!
Here's my melee mod types (copied from my still-WIP personal design doc):
| Quote: | Melee weapon upgrades are divided into three types:
• A bonding alloy modifies a melee weapon’s material composition, offering a variety of interesting properties and effects.
• An energy cell impacts the amount and type of damage that a melee weapon deals with a successful attack.
• Grip design can change the shape and nature of a melee weapon. |
Grip isn't one I'm playing to give to players directly. I use it to price out equipment. The other two have slot icons.
All my icons are originally from Knight of the Old Republic or the sequel. I've played with their clarity but may need to broaden my design references to get different images. I also think I need to make slot and upgrade icons ~50% larger. They looked good to me until I took a few days off and came back to them. Now they seem too small. |
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raithyn
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Jun 2023
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2024 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | jtanzer wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | This feels more “real” than using the RAW’s modification/upgrade rules, by which I mean, a character in-universe would say “it’s a DH-44 pistol with [insert upgrade/s here]”, not “it’s a DH-44 modified with +2 to damage.” |
The Alexandrian wrote about this problem and while he doesn't say it explicitly, he implies that you don't need a formal crafting/modification system to justify the statline. In fact, pg. 65 of the 1E rulebook details how PCs can customize their ships, and suggests that the gamemaster should permit the PCs to modify their equipment as well in a similar manner. While 2E is more complex (IMO unnecessarily so), pg. 87 gives rules for blasters with a limit of +1d+2 above base damage value.
SWTOR has a similar system, and it doesn't really do anything useful. The reason why is because you can get similar, or better, equipment as rewards for storyline quests and other content. As a result, equipment modification doesn't really matter. Now, if you couldn't get better gear except through modifying existing gear, then it would have more value. Then, new gear, rather than being strictly better, could open up additional possibilities. However, this doesn't really fit very well into SW.
Personally, I don't see the value in the modification system. It doesn't do anything that the original systems couldn't do as well, and players are unlikely to treat the items created as special. Now, that's not to say that you can't make it work. As I stated previously, it doesn't fit SW, but it does fit the survival/post-apocalypse genre, where you're unlikely to find better equipment. The systems put into a game should support and reinforce that game, rather than being simply tacked on for the sake of 'being there', which, unfortunately, this appears to be.
Sources:
The Alexandrian: Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items
Razbuten: Crafting is (Kinda) Pointless
Adam Millard - The Architect of Games: Building Better Crafting Systems
Game Ghost: Your Crafting System probably sucks.
Playlist: Game Design - Crafting Mechanics |
In case you missed my previous post, here it is. My beef with crafting systems is that you have to make it one of the central pillars of your game in order to make it work. This is what killed WoW's crafting system. Originally, it was a central pillar of the game and economy, with the high end gear being a rare drop from raids. This made acquisition of that gear hard and therefore a mark of status. However, when Blizzard started adding gear to quest rewards, they effectively made crafting worthless.
The problem with adding a crafting/upgrading system to SWD6, as I see it, is a systemic one. While ships are meant to be upgraded, there's little difference between a regular blaster pistol with an upgraded barrel that gives it 5D damage, and a regularly heavy blaster pistol. Similarly, putting an optic on a pistol to give it +1D to blaster skill is little different from a pistol that has been upgraded to give it +1D to blaster skill. In the end, it's just fluff. Handing the GM, who already has a lot of stuff to juggle, yet another system, is less than optimal in my opinion. This is also why I don't always see eye-to-eye with CRMcNeill. While I do like the systems he builds, my priorities are different enough that I view them as less useful than tables that allow me to generate quests, bases, or NPCs. |
I understand your concerns. You may not be the target audience. And that's okay. Either way, I don't think "crafting" is an appropriate term to apply. No one is collecting 100 scrap and 30 glass bottles to forge a pinpoint scope.
The use case I started with was trying to understand and price out differences in equipment—what is that +1D blaster worth? How can it be standardized.
WEG's equipment stats doesn't have firm rules. There were trend lines that emerge though so I started formalizing those for myself. I'm not fully happy with the prices yet but the pieces feel about right.
Modifications seems like an obvious way to present the system. There are only a few base items and no two modifications for a base item duplicate each other. Some of the modifications, like a scope, make sense to let the players change out and get some fun from their repair skills. Some, like grips, don't make as much sense in the fiction. It's ultimately a menu that adds up to a total cost. How much is actually a la carte from the player perspective is entirely up to the GM. |
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