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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Capsule:
The Imperial Munitions IG-7 is a highly advanced weapon system constructed solely for the use of the Imperial Guard. While it is listed as an Imperial Munitions product, the weapon was designed, developed and built solely as a research project of the Imperial Guard Armory at their barracks complex in the Imperial Palace. All IG-7's are individually manufactured by armorer droids within the palace, and the designs, materials and specifications are kept on physically isolated data storage in the armory itself. |
That's better.
| crmcneill wrote: | Fine. Since I momentarily forgot how much you love arguing minutiae, when I said "average", I was using a turn of phrase to cover all player characters, regardless of their skill level.
When you listed off the different types of people who might have access to that information, you neglected to mention the probability that those people who know will talk about it. When I said "public", I meant merely that the Alliance (or whatever organization the PCs work for) would gain knowledge of it. |
Regarding "average" and "public" to quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
| Quote: | | Well, obviously, in your SWU, they don't bother with appearances. |
Sure the Imps do. But in my SWU the reality of weapons of terror is the focus for super secret Imperial tech, not appearances and I see the Imperial Guard as fulfilling two roles (1) providing the appearance of Imperium by showing the Emperor's Red Guards as the successors of the Senates Blue Guards and (2) providing another level of advancement and achievement for Stormtroopers. It is important in my SWU for the Emperor to provide a series of levels of achievment and hierarchy to motivate citizens of the Imperium - sort of like the multitudinous colors of the belt systems in commercial martial arts - in parallel and supporting the overlapping and conflicting levels of authority and resposibiltiy of the various hierarchies. So the Imperial Guards is one more "belt" for the stormtrooper hierarchy.
Of course in your SWU you are entitled to have the Empire spend it's research credits on whatever you wish.
| Quote: | | You seem to be working under the assumption that freedom of information exists in the Empire... |
You seem to be working under the assumption that keeping secrets is easy and without cost. I'm assuming some publicity about the IG is in the interest of the Emperor in inculcating loyalty in the masses - sort of like the way the Nazi's publicized the actions of the SS. Also, if in one's universe the IG and Stormies are not all clones, such publicity would significantly aid recruitment. I think having a segment of the population, especially on Corsucant, who look at the very visible Imperial Guard as heroes to be idolized rather than mysterious villains to be feared may be beneficial to the longevity of the Emperor.
| Quote: | | So the stormtroopers are extremely loyal, and would never ever turn on the Emperor. But the Imperial Guard, who are selected from the best of the best of the stormtrooper corps, are a threat to Palpatine because they might turn on the Emperor? Pick one side or the other; you can't have both. |
I am making two points. Those points are separate. (1) canon does not support disloyalty of the stormtroopers or the IG therefore the IG isn't needed as a check on the stormtroopers. (2) despite the fact that both have been historically loyal a Sith like Palpatine who advanced by treacherous assassination survives by trusting no one. Giving weapons that are designed to be specifically effective against force users to the guys who stand on guard behind and beside him is a risk that he need not take. Clearly your opinion differs. I'm OK with that.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Gun #1 a heavy blaster pistol with over double the normal range and double the normal magazine capacity and an autofire mode. This should be at least as large as Han Solo's blaster pistol (which has less than half the range, half the ammo, and no autofire). |
Already addressed in an earlier post, which you apparently didn't bother to read. I stated that I was picturing a gun roughly the size of the machine pistol used by Blade in the Blade films. |
I read it. What I wrote was the first part of a multi step argument designed to show that, based on existing weapons in Star Wars, a pistol sized, even a machine pistol sized weapon is too small to be feasible. In fact the weapon the Han uses is based on a Mauser C-96 which actually is a machine pistol. I was arguing that adding all those extra weapons and features should make it bigger than Han's gun, not the same or smaller size.
| crmcneill wrote: | | And I never said it wasn't bigger, just that it wasn't as ridiculously big as a WH40K pistol. I was picturing something similar to this, only with more of a Star Wars look to it. |
Blade's machine pistol is based on the MAC-11 which is actually smaller than a Mauser. So apparently you are picturing something smaller not bigger.
My fundamental objection to the weapon is that the over-the-top stats, biometric safety, and super secrect nature make it clear that it is most suitable as a PC killer weapon that the PCs cannot easily pick up and use afterwards. I find those sorts of weapons, monsters, etc. very unrealistic and unappealing.
| Quote: | | Mostly because I say it does. |
I think you should just stick to this as the rationale. It's the best one you have come up with. Though, as I mentioned, I think the most recent capsule does provide a rationale for super secrecy. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Bren wrote: | | Regarding "average" and "public" to quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
| Quote: | | You seem to be working under the assumption that keeping secrets is easy and without cost. I'm assuming some publicity about the IG is in the interest of the Emperor in inculcating loyalty in the masses - sort of like the way the Nazi's publicized the actions of the SS. |
And yet the tone of your posts suggests that you think the Empire has a extremely binary approach to security; either information is kept obsessively secret at any cost, or it is made available to anyone for the sake of good publicity, completely ignoring the fact that there are degrees of secrecy. Sure, people could know that the Red Guard is armed with a special gun that does cool things, but that doesn't mean that the specs for the gun are available just because some obsessive groupie wants to know everything there is to know about them. Hell, even in the US, elite military units have weapons technology where the details are classified, even if it is known to exist.
| Quote: | | I am making two points. Those points are separate. (1) canon does not support disloyalty of the stormtroopers or the IG therefore the IG isn't needed as a check on the stormtroopers. (2) despite the fact that both have been historically loyal a Sith like Palpatine who advanced by treacherous assassination survives by trusting no one. |
You are dodging the point. I will reiterate and rephrase.
(1). If the canon does not support the disloyalty of stormtroopers or the IG, then your previous assertion that the IG would be a threat to Palpatine is moot, as they are too loyal to ever consider turning their weapons on the Emperor. In Star Wars: Empire, a special batch of stormtroopers was created with no loyalty to the Emperor, but to their own Grand Moffs. If you accept the EU, however, the loyalty of some stormtroopers and IG may be swayed, as in the cases of Carnor Jax and Ven Northal. These two scenarios contradict each other, so one of them must be true, rendering the other false. Therefore, you are basing one of your arguments on a false premise. Pick whichever one you like, and we will move on from there. And of course the IG isn't needed as a check on stormtroopers, but disloyal stormtroopers are the least likely threat that the Emperor can be expected to face.
(2)Who said anything about trust? If you read the history of the Guard, it was actually established after a failed attempt on Palpatine's life. Officially, it was voted into existence by the Senate. Unofficially, it is impossible to believe that Palpatine didn't have a hand in it.
The point is that the IG was established to protect Palpatine, the non-combatant politician. The fact that Palpatine was also a Sith Lord was likely known only to Sidious himself and whoever the Sith Apprentice was at that time. I very much doubt that Palpatine has let that mask slip, even as Emperor, so if 99% of the galaxy still believes that he is a non-combatant politician, then the guard is very important to him, and helping him keep that facade is only part of the reason (I refer to my previous post where I mentioned the various duties that the IG performs aside from protecting the Emperor).
| Quote: | | Giving weapons that are designed to be specifically effective against force users to the guys who stand on guard behind and beside him is a risk that he need not take.Clearly your opinion differs. I'm OK with that. |
I never said that the scattergun was specifically designed to be effective against Force users, merely that it provided advantages against opponents armed with lightsabers. Even if it were specifically designed for that purpose, it still wouldn't be a true threat to Palpatine:
1). I agree that Palpatine trusts no one, and an expression of that lack of trust is that he likely has Danger Sense up every hour of every day, which means he will sense any attack coming.
2). Even without a lightsaber, since Palpy would almost certainly sense an attack coming, he has offensive options, such as Force Lightning and TK Kill before the shot is fired, or using TK to disarm the assailant so that he can be captured and questioned.
3). Even if the attacked does get off a shot, Palpatine has more than enough Control dice to use Absorb/Dissipate Energy.
4). If by some chance Palpy's dice totals are not high enough to succeed on any of these rolls, he has a plethora of Force Points and Dark Side Points, with no compunction against using them.
5). On the off chance that all of this still wasn't enough, even if one IG went rogue and started shooting, there would still be a minimum of one other IG present to come to Palpatine's defense (considering how rare traitors are in the IG, the odds of two guards on the same shift being traitors will be astronomically low).
6). As a bonus, if someone were to somehow wrestle the gun away from an IG and attempt to shoot it at Palpatine, the biometric scanner would keep the gun from firing and zap the would-be assassin with the stun grip.
| Quote: | | Blade's machine pistol is based on the MAC-11 which is actually smaller than a Mauser. So apparently you are picturing something smaller not bigger. |
The MAC-11 may be smaller than a Mauser, but the Blade variant (with the massive barrel extension out front) is not. I'm not even sure how one could look at the two side by side and decide that the Mauser is larger. The extended barrel is key to Gun #1, because it is key to both the cooling system for rapid fire mode and the dual-stage focusing system for the needlebeam mode.
| Quote: | | My fundamental objection to the weapon is that the over-the-top stats, biometric safety, and super secrect nature make it clear that it is most suitable as a PC killer weapon that the PCs cannot easily pick up and use afterwards. I find those sorts of weapons, monsters, etc. very unrealistic and unappealing. |
You mean you don't like it? I never would've guessed.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Mostly because I say it does. |
I think you should just stick to this as the rationale. It's the best one you have come up with. |
Again, based solely on your opinion of how SW tech works.
| Quote: | | Though, as I mentioned, I think the most recent capsule does provide a rationale for super secrecy. |
Thank you.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | And yet the tone of your posts suggests that you think the Empire has a extremely binary approach to security; |
| crmcneill wrote: | | ...either information is kept obsessively secret at any cost, or it is made available to anyone for the sake of good publicity, completely ignoring the fact that there are degrees of secrecy. Sure, people could know that the Red Guard is armed with a special gun that does cool things, but that doesn't mean that the specs for the gun are available just because some obsessive groupie wants to know everything there is to know about them. Hell, even in the US, elite military units have weapons technology where the details are classified, even if it is known to exist. |
I don't see Imperial security as binary. It is you with your 'hyperbole' that has repeatedly tried to set up that dichotomy. If it is known that the Red Guard has a special gun, than any competent would be assassin would want to know the details. That was all my comment was intended to prove. It was to counter your earlier posts where you argued that no one would even know that the guns were special. And hence any PC would have to be completely ignorant of the possibilities.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | I am making two points. Those points are separate. (1) canon does not support disloyalty of the stormtroopers or the IG therefore the IG isn't needed as a check on the stormtroopers. (2) despite the fact that both have been historically loyal a Sith like Palpatine who advanced by treacherous assassination survives by trusting no one. |
You are dodging the point. I will reiterate and rephrase.
(1). If the canon does not support the disloyalty of stormtroopers or the IG, then your previous assertion that the IG would be a threat to Palpatine is moot, |
This presumes I accept canon as preeminent in discussions. And it presumes that the past is an unchanging guide to the future. As you well know from many prior posts. I do not bow at the altar of canon. And the fact that in the past no stormtrooper has been disloyal to his Emperor is not a 100% guarantee of the future. | Quote: | | In Star Wars: Empire, a special batch of stormtroopers was created with no loyalty to the Emperor, but to their own Grand Moffs. |
I have not read Star Wars: Empire. I find it highly unlikely that Palpatine would allow the creation of stormtroopers without loyalty to the Emperor. In my SWU, Stormtroopers have not been disloyal to date. But to repeat, the point I already made: a Sith like Palpatine who advanced by treacherous assassination survives by trusting no one. No matter how conditioned to loyalty the IG is, he is aware that conditioning can fail, Affect Mind exists, and he should never trust anyone with a superweapon at his back.
| Quote: | | (2)Who said anything about trust? |
You did. When you issued the IG weapons that could far more easily affect Sideous than traditional heavy blasters.
| Quote: | | The point is that the IG was established to protect Palpatine, the non-combatant politician. |
And to do that they don't need superguns.
| Quote: | | I never said that the scattergun was specifically designed to be effective against Force users, merely that it provided advantages against opponents armed with lightsabers. |
And virtually all opponents armed with lightsabers are force users. The fact that the gun is designed to thwart force using PCs is obvious from your writeup.
| Quote: | | 3). Even if the attacked does get off a shot, Palpatine has more than enough Control dice to use Absorb/Dissipate Energy. |
I don't have Palpatine's Control stat handy, but making a Moderate roll + 8D per shot with associated MAPs is not trivial.
| Quote: | | 5). On the off chance that all of this still wasn't enough, even if one IG went rogue and started shooting, there would still be a minimum of one other IG present to come to Palpatine's defense (considering how rare traitors are in the IG, the odds of two guards on the same shift being traitors will be astronomically low). |
True if it is a single rogue Imperial Guard, not necessarily the case if it is a well coordinated assassination attempt. Which I agree is very unlikely. But the unlikeliness is not the point, the possibility in a paranoid Sith Lord's mind is what matters.
| Quote: | | 6). As a bonus, if someone were to somehow wrestle the gun away from an IG and attempt to shoot it at Palpatine, the biometric scanner would keep the gun from firing and zap the would-be assassin with the stun grip. |
It's not a bonus. It it is a fundamental element of the PC-thwarting design of the supergun.
MAC-11
Length 248 mm
Mauser
Length 312 mm (12.3 in) (pre-Bolo)
271 mm (10.7 in) (post-Bolo)
A close examination of the photos of the MAC-11 and the modified Blade weapon shows that including the barrel extension and removing the folding stock gives a length slightly less than 1/6 longer than the original weapon or approximately 289 mm. I note that this is longer than the pre-Bolo Mauser, however it is shorter than the post Bolo Mauser. At best the Blade style gun is only a little bit larger than Han Solo's blaster.
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The MAC-11 may be smaller than a Mauser, but the Blade variant (with the massive barrel extension out front) is not. I'm not even sure how one could look at the two side by side and decide that the Mauser is larger. |
Obviously, by looking at the measurements, not just the pictures.
| Quote: | | The extended barrel is key to Gun #1, because it is key to both the cooling system for rapid fire mode and the dual-stage focusing system for the needlebeam mode |
OK. I thought that was where "Gun #2 - a heavier, shorter ranged weapon under the barrel of Gun #1" was located. My mistake. Where is Gun#2 - the short range deck sweeper/blaster cannon located in the picture?
| Quote: | | You mean you don't like it? I never would've guessed. |
Yes. I find items designed specifically to thwart and kill PCs contrary to the spirit of collaboration I find crucial to a healthy GM-player relationship. If you had started out explicitly stating that was your aim, the futility of commenting on the weapon would have been more obvious. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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I wont even be bothered to dive into all of the above. I just dont see the need for the weapon..
The IG have their force pikes. Given the 'invention' of phrik since the original movies/rpg game Id assume they are covered by a layer of phrik. Having some kind of laser in the pike is the most obvious choice as they seem to be hanging on to those all the time. Next thing would be some kind of wristlaser in their armour, to have access to the weapon at all time for quick response to a threat.
One has to remember that the goal of bodyguards is not a stand up fight with a powerful force. Their goal would be to get the Emperor away from the threat (if that is what HE wants) as soon as possible. Some IG will fight a delaying action sacrificing themselves to buy the Empereror time to get away. If the Emperor do not wish to flee the scene, the tactic would be to go full defence tying up the assailants while the Emperor takes them out (or reinforcements arrive). Usually, there are a lot of ST around as well. Not when in private chambers/throne room, but I guess those areas have some kind of offensive protection system installed.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | The IG have their force pikes. Given the 'invention' of phrik since the original movies/rpg game Id assume they are covered by a layer of phrik. |
Or use the same technology as the Magnaguard's Electro Staves - which are able to parry lightsabers.
| Quote: | | Next thing would be some kind of wristlaser in their armour, to have access to the weapon at all time for quick response to a threat. |
I like the idea of wrist lasers. They could be built into the signature armor to act as a backup or complement to force pikes or normal blaster pistols and - bonus - stats for wrist lasers already exist.
| Quote: | | One has to remember that the goal of bodyguards is not a stand up fight with a powerful force. |
True. Like the US Secret Service, their goal is to protect the executive. |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I love my Imperial Guards... and I love them as portrayed as being incredibly deadly without the need for specialized equipment.
Their standard equipment is really quite standard, and despite that, they are the elite of the elite.
This sort of weapon seems more like a low grade bounty hunter's wet dream than something appropriate for the concept of the Imperial Guard.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16230
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Bren wrote: | | I don't see Imperial security as binary. It is you with your 'hyperbole' that has repeatedly tried to set up that dichotomy. If it is known that the Red Guard has a special gun, than any competent would be assassin would want to know the details. That was all my comment was intended to prove. It was to counter your earlier posts where you argued that no one would even know that the guns were special. And hence any PC would have to be completely ignorant of the possibilities. |
I never argued that no one would know that the guns were special, merely that finding out exactly how the guns were special (as well as divining the details of the security system) would be very very difficult. Sure, an assassin would want to know the details. That doesn't mean he can get them. Your posts made it clear that there would be ways to get the information, without ever addressing how improbable it might be to actually get ahold of it.
| Quote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | (1). If the canon does not support the disloyalty of stormtroopers or the IG, then your previous assertion that the IG would be a threat to Palpatine is moot, |
This presumes I accept canon as preeminent in discussions. And it presumes that the past is an unchanging guide to the future. As you well know from many prior posts. I do not bow at the altar of canon. And the fact that in the past no stormtrooper has been disloyal to his Emperor is not a 100% guarantee of the future. |
If that is the case, then why did you bring up canon to counter the example of the rogue clone troopers being used in assassination attempt against the Emperor? You cited a canon statement that stormtroopers are so fanatically loyal that they would never turn against the Emperor, but then immediately disavow that statement by saying that you don't accept it as canon.
Oh, and you're still dodging the point.
| Quote: | | I have not read Star Wars: Empire. I find it highly unlikely that Palpatine would allow the creation of stormtroopers without loyalty to the Emperor. |
Look it up on Wookieepedia. These stormtroopers were created by a cabal of Grand Moffs who were part of an anti-Sith conspiracy. Palpatine had no hand in their creation.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | (2)Who said anything about trust? |
You did. When you issued the IG weapons that could far more easily affect Sideous than traditional heavy blasters. |
So the line between trust and lack of trust is the difference between a heavy blaster pistol and an advanced multi-purpose blaster pistol? That's rather arbitrary.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The point is that the IG was established to protect Palpatine, the non-combatant politician. |
And to do that they don't need superguns. |
Maybe. Maybe not. And for someone who has reminded me repeatedly that we are all allowed to make our own SWU the way we see fit, you seem awfully invested in imposing your version on mine.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I never said that the scattergun was specifically designed to be effective against Force users, merely that it provided advantages against opponents armed with lightsabers. |
And virtually all opponents armed with lightsabers are force users. The fact that the gun is designed to thwart force using PCs is obvious from your writeup. |
Look again. The only thing I said was that the scatter gun effect would make an excellent anti-Jedi. Never once did I say that the scattergun was specifically included for that purpose. I'm surprised someone as literal as you missed that.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | 3). Even if the attacked does get off a shot, Palpatine has more than enough Control dice to use Absorb/Dissipate Energy. |
I don't have Palpatine's Control stat handy, but making a Moderate roll + 8D per shot with associated MAPs is not trivial. |
I never said it was, but if anyone has a chance of pulling it off, it's is Palpatine, with a Control of 13D, 35 FPs, 43 DSPs and 60 CPs.
With Moderate + 8D, you are looking at a likely result of 43 (using the most likely result of 7 per 2D). Palpatine, with his 13D Control has a likely result of 45. Just enough to break even, even without his various points coming in to play. Plus, you are completely ignoring my previously mentioned points that a Guard would have to be extremely lucky to get past Palpatine's Danger Sense to even get off the first shot, especially against a Sith who has no compunction against using offense as a good defense. It doesn't matter how powerful your gun is if the Sith Lord you are attacking gets off the first attack with TK Kill and an Alter of 14D.
EDIT: Also, your fact-checking was off. The scatter blaster mode inflicts 6D damage, not 8D. The 8D blast is a linear discharge that could actually be deflected by a lightsaber, as per a normal blaster bolt. That drops 2D off the difficulty Palpatine would have to beat for a successful Absorb/Dissipate roll. On top of that, the Power Cannon has a Fire Rate of 1/2 in either mode, so firing multiple shots in a round and accumulating MAPs is not an issue. You really should read the fine print.
| Quote: | | True if it is a single rogue Imperial Guard, not necessarily the case if it is a well coordinated assassination attempt. Which I agree is very unlikely. But the unlikeliness is not the point, the possibility in a paranoid Sith Lord's mind is what matters. |
Palpatine's biggest weakness is overconfidence. If he really was that paranoid, he would be the only one living in the Imperial Palace. Instead, he surrounds himself with courtiers, guards, assassins, etc. I'm not saying that he isn't paranoid at all, but I do think you're drastically overestimating it. It's even possible that someone like Palpatine would allow assassination attempts to proceed with his knowledge, as part of the interplay of Palace politics, or even for his own amusement.
| Quote: | | At best the Blade style gun is only a little bit larger than Han Solo's blaster. |
If one bases one's argument solely on length without looking at the pictures and comparing the Blade gun's massively overbuilt barrel to the Mauser's hollow tube. There is a lot more to the actual size of a hand gun than just the length, but I'm sure you knew that and chose to ignore it because it didn't support your argument.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | The MAC-11 may be smaller than a Mauser, but the Blade variant (with the massive barrel extension out front) is not. I'm not even sure how one could look at the two side by side and decide that the Mauser is larger. |
Obviously, by looking at the measurements, not just the pictures. |
And by ignoring the measurements that do not support your point. Again, I said larger, not longer. You do a wonderful job fixating on some of my word choices while blithely ignoring others.
| Quote: | | OK. I thought that was where "Gun #2 - a heavier, shorter ranged weapon under the barrel of Gun #1" was located. My mistake. Where is Gun#2 - the short range deck sweeper/blaster cannon located in the picture? |
Again. Mauser barrel = small tube. Blade gun barrel = squared off housing surrounding a small tube. The enclosed barrel of the Blade gun is integrated into the larger barrel size, and Gun #2 is in the extension beneath it. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse just to be a troll.
| Quote: | | It's not a bonus. It it is a fundamental element of the PC-thwarting design of the supergun. |
| Quote: | | Yes. I find items designed specifically to thwart and kill PCs contrary to the spirit of collaboration I find crucial to a healthy GM-player relationship. If you had started out explicitly stating that was your aim, the futility of commenting on the weapon would have been more obvious. |
As opposed to the gaming theory of old that anything that isn't nailed down should be available to the PCs as loot? The fact that you and I have differing gaming styles has been pretty well established by now.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:44 am; edited 5 times in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16230
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Personally, I love my Imperial Guards... and I love them as portrayed as being incredibly deadly without the need for specialized equipment.
Their standard equipment is really quite standard, and despite that, they are the elite of the elite.
This sort of weapon seems more like a low grade bounty hunter's wet dream than something appropriate for the concept of the Imperial Guard. |
<shrug> To each their own. It's pretty well established that everyone has different ideas for what the Imperial Guard is, what their equipment should be, and what their duties are.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16230
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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So, to reflect the helpful suggestions of the few (mostly just garhkal), these are the updated stats for the IG-7. For everyone else, I think we've established that you don't like it. Thank you for playing and good night.
Imperial Munitions IG-7 Assault Blaster Pistol
Model: Imperial Munitions IG-7
Type: Assault Blaster Pistol
Skill: Blaster: IG-7 Assault Blaster Pistol
Ammo: 100
Cost: 5,000 (Power Packs: 50) (Not Available For Sale. The posted price is the price of materials and constructed for an individual model).
Availability: 4, X
Range: 3-10/30/120
Damage: 5D
Special Features:
Auto-Fire Mode
-Pistol fires in rapid fire mode, with each "shot" consuming 5 shots from the pistol's power pack.
-Provides a +1D bonus that can be applied either to damage or targeting.
Sniper Mode
-Uses needlebeam technology and an internal gyro-stabilizer to make accurate shots at extreme range.
-Range: 6-20/60/240*
*Long range shots are at +5 difficulty unless the scomp-link scope is used.
-Damage: 4D
-Fire Rate: 1/2
-Ammo: Each shot in Sniper Mode consumes 2 charges from the weapon's power pack.
-Gyroscope: Stabilizes the weapon for greater accuracy at long range, at the expense of accuracy at shorter ranges. +1D to hit at Long Range, -1D at Short Range and -2D at Point-Blank Range.
Power Blaster
-Under-slung blast weapon can fire either a conical blast or a single powerful shot.
-A single shot in either mode consumes 10 shots from the pistol's power pack.
-Scatter Mode (Range: 0-1/2/4, Damage 6D/5D/3D. Affects all targets in a 45 degree arc. Targets within 2 meters may not dodge. Targets within 4 meters may attempts to dodge at -1D).
-Blast Mode (Range: 3-5/10/25, Damage 8D)
-Fire Rate: 1/2
Scomp-Linked Scope
A miniature multi-function scope is scomp-linked directly to the MFTAS in the Imperial Guardsman's helmet. In addition to interfacing with the pistol for long range shots in sniper mode, it also allows the Guardsman to use the gun to scan or shoot around corners without exposing himself to enemy fire.
Security System
-Each pistol is individually coded to the Guardsman to which it is issued, with a multi-spectrum bio-scanner built into the grip. It cannot be used by anyone other than the Guard to which it is issued, however, it can be temporarily integrated with another Guard's armor in emergencies (requires an Imperial Guard armor with an integrated access code and a verbal access code). If anyone other than the pistol's assigned Guardsman attempts to fire the pistol, they take a 5D stun charge delivered through a contact stunner in the hand grip.
-The pistol is also keyed to the comlink integrated into the Guardsman's armor. If the pistol is further than 50 meters away from the Guardsman for more than five minutes, the pistol's power pack overloads, exploding with a damage of 6D/4D/2D damage with a blast radius of 0-2/4/6.
-Attempting to reprogram the pistol to accept a new gunner requires three items.
--1) a specialized key (carried by each guardsman group leader).
--2) a second key carried by the supervising armorers for the royal guard unit.
--3) voice command override (only known to the engineers).
-Faking any of these require at least 2 Very Difficult Computer Programming rolls for item 1 or 2, and a Heroic con roll for 3. To be able to fake the roll also requires prior knowledge that the security systems exist.
-All details of the security system are unknown outside the Emperor's inner circle as of the Battle of Hoth. After Return of the Jedi, some lore of them does exist.
Capsule:
The Imperial Munitions IG-7 is a highly advanced weapon system constructed solely for the use of the Imperial Guard. While it is listed as an Imperial Munitions product, the weapon was designed, developed and built solely as a research project of the Imperial Guard Armory at their barracks complex in the Imperial Palace. All IG-7's are individually manufactured by armorer droids within the palace, and the designs, materials and specifications are kept on physically isolated data storage in the armory itself.
Larger and bulkier than a standard pistol, the IG-7 incorporates two separate blasters in an under-over configuration, and both weapons utilize advanced technology to perform a variety of functions, from normal semi-automatic blast fire, all the way up to sniper and anti-vehicle functions. The technology used is highly classified, and the only beings with access to it are Imperial Guard members who serve as the unit's armorers.
The top barrel functions as a riot blaster pistol, with selectable fire rate at either single shot or short bursts. In addition, the blaster can also function in a needle-beam mode, where the beam is focused to near one-dimensional proportions, greatly enhancing the range at the expense of damage. The design compensates for the loss of damage capacity by firing a high intensity shot that consumes two charges from the weapon's power pack. A gyroscopic stabilization system and scomp-linked helmet scope also enhanced the weapon's accuracy at long range.
The lower barrel is a compact yet powerful scatter-blaster, capable of firing a conical blast of energy that could hit multiple targets simultaneously. Additionally, the weapon's beam scattering system can be inverted, focusing the blaster's energy into a single linear blast of sufficient power to destroy a speeder.
In addition, to protect the top secret technology incorporated into the IG-7, it is fitted with a multi-layer security system, including a bio-metric security grip linked to a miniature contact stunner, and a timed self-destruct system that activates if the weapon is taken too far away from its assigned user.
The IG-7 is arguably one of the most formidable blaster weapons ever created. Very expensive and rare, it has only ever been seen in the hands of the Imperial Guard, and access to the weapon (or any information about it) is a secret closely held and zealously protected by the Guard. It is only carried by the Guard when they are in their formal uniforms, and is worn in a quick-draw holster concealed beneath their robes (+1D to quick draw rolls).
EDIT: Changed the range on Sniper mode to reflect the rules I posted below for needlebeam blaster weapon modifications, and edited the rules for the Gyro-stabilizer.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I never argued that no one would know that the guns were special, merely that finding out exactly how the guns were special (as well as divining the details of the security system) would be very very difficult. |
Well let's look at a prior comment:
| crmcneill wrote: | | The way I figure, the PCs would know next to nothing about these guns apart from what they observe when the guns get shot at them. |
Next to nothing sounds like the first clue a PC has that the supergun is super is when he or she is shot with it. But perhaps you meant something else with these words as well?
| crmcneill wrote: | | If that is the case, then why did you bring up canon to counter the example of the rogue clone troopers being used in assassination attempt against the Emperor? You cited a canon statement that stormtroopers are so fanatically loyal that they would never turn against the Emperor, but then immediately disavow that statement by saying that you don't accept it as canon. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | Oh, and you're still dodging the point. |
Well I thought I had clearly answered this point more than once. Let's try again for hopefully one last time.
1) Either the Imperial Guard is fanatically loyal and under no possible circumstances can they be a threat to Palps or the IG is a potential threat - at least in the mind of the Emperor. I believe that, despite past loyalty, a Sith master of treachery like Palpatine would consider them a threat and would limit the weapons they have so that the potential threat to himself is minimally acceptable. The force pikes shown in the films do that very well. Note this is logic based on observed behavior and motivations of Palpatine, supported by what we see in the films of the IG's weaponry.
2) Some comic book had Palpatine allowing some Grand Moffs to create their own stormtroopers without any loyalty to the Emperor resulting in an attempted coup or assassination.
3) On the other hand other sources state that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal to the Emperor. (2) and (3) are in conflict. As I said previously I find (2) highly unlikely and I reject it in favor of (3).
Of course that doesn't really help you any since you apparently must accept all canon so both (2) and the even more wacky comic with Carnor Jax featuring at least one traitorous Imperial Guard. This supports my point (1), that Palps shouldn't trust his Imperial Guard so much that he gives them your superguns. You haven't explained why he should take that additional risk in light of multiple 'canon' sources of treachery within the stormtrooper and IG ranks.
Also, as I previously noted, although I accept that historically stormtroopers are loyal to the Emperor, that historical fact does not 100% guarantee loyalty in the future. Here are four reasons Palps would not rely solely on the IG's loyalty.
(A) It is at least theoretically possible that an IG could somehow be suborned or go rogue. Your comics sources rely on this. So it is something you must and do admit is possible. The question then is how many guards will it take to be a threat.
(B) Affect mind could be used to affect an IG. Not by any means an easy roll, but if OB1 or Yoda are out there somewhere Palps has to consider it. In addition Vader has the power and could use this as part of an attempt to eliminate his master and become the head Sith, like Palps did to his master. So Palps must factor an attempt on his life by his Sith pupil.
(C) An assassin could be substituted for an Imperial Guard. The biometric stuff in your supergun would be likely to thwart that, unless it is part of an inside job - see A and B above. In fact a disloyal IG officer could, at least theoretically, replace other IGs with paid assassins. Vader is certainly capable of that.
(D) 1's on the wild die. Palpatine's farseeing is not infallible - he failed to anticipate Luke and, after RotS, he appears unaware of OB1 and Yoda. His danger sense may not be infallible either. Certainly Palps' master's danger sense was not infallible and if we believe his blather about Darth Plagueis he has still not yet mastered everything his master knew.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I have not read Star Wars: Empire. I find it highly unlikely that Palpatine would allow the creation of stormtroopers without loyalty to the Emperor. |
Look it up on Wookieepedia. |
I don't need to 'look it up' to find it highly unlikely and reject it. Perhaps it is a what-if or alternate universe story. The beauty of not worshiping canon is I don't have to accept anything I find implausible. So how do you reconcile the canon of fanatically loyal stormtroopers with the comic book traitors within the ranks of the ostensibly even more loyal Imperial Guard with your notion that Palps would equip the IG, including the disloyal, with superguns?
| Quote: | | So the line between trust and lack of trust is the difference between a heavy blaster pistol and an advanced multi-purpose blaster pistol? That's rather arbitrary. |
I think forcepikes was the correct line. It's all the IG needs to show the Imperial courtiers the mailed fist in the Emperor's velvet glove. It's all the IG needs to engage lightsaber wielding Jedi terrorists. And agains blaster armed foes, the IG interpose their bodies in front of the Emperor literally taking the blaster hit for him. They don't need superguns to do the job of Imperial Bodyguard.
| crmcneill wrote: | The point is that the IG was established to protect Palpatine, the non-combatant politician. | Bren wrote: | | And to do that they don't need superguns. |
Maybe. Maybe not. And for someone who has reminded me repeatedly that we are all allowed to make our own SWU the way we see fit, you seem awfully invested in imposing your version on mine. |
I am invested in my argument. You already know that you get to add whatever you want to your SWU despite my objections or canon contradictions. You don't need my permission. You don't need George's permission. But if you want to argue with me, I defend my arguments. You already knew that too though. It's really pretty simple, if you don't want to see a counter rebuttal, then don't post a rebuttal to my posts.
| crmcneill wrote: | I never said that the scattergun was specifically designed to be effective against Force users, merely that it provided advantages against opponents armed with lightsabers. | Bren wrote: | | And virtually all opponents armed with lightsabers are force users. The fact that the gun is designed to thwart force using PCs is obvious from your writeup. |
Look again. The only thing I said was that the scatter gun effect would make an excellent anti-Jedi. Never once did I say that the scattergun was specifically included for that purpose. I'm surprised someone as literal as you missed that. |
You didn't need to explicitly say it. It is obvious from the stats of the supergun that it is designed (by you) as an anti-Jedi, anti-PC weapon.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I don't have Palpatine's Control stat handy, but making a Moderate roll + 8D per shot with associated MAPs is not trivial. |
I never said it was, but if anyone has a chance of pulling it off, it's is Palpatine, with a Control of 13D, 35 FPs, 43 DSPs and 60 CPs. |
Good analysis. I agree Palpatine can block a shot and almost certainly will if he spends CPs. Your analysis shows that without any MAPSs for other powers or actions, Palps has better than a 50% chance to absorb an 8D shot. | Quote: | | Plus, you are completely ignoring my previously mentioned points that a Guard would have to be extremely lucky to get past Palpatine's Danger Sense... |
Not ignored. Just discounted since the point is the guard might get a shot off. It is very likely Palps will sense that. See A, B, C, and D above for examples where his danger sense might fail or be insufficient.
| Quote: | | EDIT: Also, your fact-checking was off. The scatter blaster mode inflicts 6D damage, not 8D. |
Sorry. Fair point. However, I notice you did not subtract MAPs for Danger Sense or for absorbing multiple shots. So net-net Palps is around a 50% or less chance to absorb multiple without spending CPs. I think the odds are that Palpatine will not be able to absorb multiple shots without spending CPs, which he has and to spare.
| crmcneill wrote: | | On top of that, the Power Cannon has a Fire Rate of 1/2 in either mode, so firing multiple shots in a round and accumulating MAPs is not an issue. You really should read the fine print. |
From your recent write up I see that is only true for the 8D Blast Mode. No ROF is listed for the Scatter Mode, which lists first. Which in Star Wars means the ROF is limited only by the MAPs. So multiple 6D unparryable scatter shots are allowed. Apparently I'm not the only one who finds the many modes of the supergun confusing. 
| Quote: | | I'm not saying that he isn't paranoid at all, but I do think you're drastically overestimating it. |
And obviously I don't. I think we will just have to disagree on this point.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | At best the Blade style gun is only a little bit larger than Han Solo's blaster. |
If one bases one's argument solely on length without looking at the pictures and comparing the Blade gun's massively overbuilt barrel to the Mauser's hollow tube. |
But Han's blaster is not just a hollow tube barrel. It has a some sort of add on at the end either for cooling or to enhance power or something. It also includes a scope attachment that increases the overall mass above a standard Mauser C-96. The add on to the blade gun extends 41 mm past the original MAC-11 barrel. That is hardly massive.
| Quote: | | And by ignoring the measurements that do not support your point. Again, I said larger, not longer. You do a wonderful job fixating on some of my word choices while blithely ignoring others. |
At least I looked at the measurements. It doesn't appear that you have.
| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | The extended barrel is key to Gun #1, because it is key to both the cooling system for rapid fire mode and the dual-stage focusing system for the needlebeam mode |
OK. I thought that was where "Gun #2 - a heavier, shorter ranged weapon under the barrel of Gun #1" was located. My mistake. Where is Gun#2 - the short range deck sweeper/blaster cannon located in the picture? |
| crmcneill wrote: | | Blade gun barrel = squared off housing surrounding a small tube. The enclosed barrel of the Blade gun is integrated into the larger barrel size, and Gun #2 is in the extension beneath it. |
So the scattergun and blaster cannon fit in the bottom half of the six inch long add on bit to the MAC-11. So it is basically a hold out blaster sized blaster cannon. No wonder I missed it.
| crmcneill wrote: | | At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse just to be a troll. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Yes. I find items designed specifically to thwart and kill PCs contrary to the spirit of collaboration I find crucial to a healthy GM-player relationship. If you had started out explicitly stating that was your aim, the futility of commenting on the weapon would have been more obvious. |
As opposed to the gaming theory of old that anything that isn't nailed down should be available to the PCs as loot? |
I fail to see what this has to do with my comment or the discussion in general. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16230
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Bren wrote: | | Next to nothing sounds like the first clue a PC has that the supergun is super is when he or she is shot with it. But perhaps you meant something else with these words as well? |
I meant exactly what I said. PCs may know that the Guard has a special hand gun, but the Guard is so shrouded in secrecy that the details of the gun (and possibly even the appearance, since it is holstered under their robes) are essentially unknown outside the IG itself, excepting the lucky few who have faced IGs armed with this weapon and lived to tell about it. Therefore, next to nothing.
As an aside, it is worth mentioning that IGs in uniform are not encountered solely in Palpatine's presence. Their description in Wookieepedia delineates additional duties, in that they can also be assigned to guard persons or locations the Palpatine considers important, such as his secret cloning facilities. It is not inconceivable that the PCs could be assigned to raid a location that, unknown to them or Alliance Intel, also contains a secret facility under the direct protection of the Guard, at Palpatine's orders. The PCs could find themselves facing a team of Red Guard with little or no warning, and that encounter could serve as a lead-in to a new part of the campaign (after all, Alliance Intel will want to know what is so important that it needed Red Guards to protect it).
| Quote: | | The force pikes shown in the films do that very well. Note this is logic based on observed behavior and motivations of Palpatine, supported by what we see in the films of the IG's weaponry. |
So does that mean that, because the IG are only seen to be equipped with Force Pikes in the films, you reject WEG's decision to give them blaster pistols? If Palpatine really is as paranoid as you say, he wouldn't even trust them that far.
And as far as his paranoia, what exactly are you basing that theory on? In ROTJ, he is blatantly overconfident; allowing the Alliance to learn the location of the Death Star all to lure them in, dismissing his Guards and leaving him alone with Luke and Vader (the two beings in the galaxy most likely able to take him down). He also shows himself to be heavily dependent on his Force-based visions and Farseeing to predict future events, which only bolsters his sense of overconfidence. In the prequels, I see him being deliberately secretive and manipulative, but very little paranoia. Rather, he is powerful, ruthless, supremely confident, all while juggling several balls in the air at once as he brings about the most spectacular coups in galactic history. In fact, he is so overconfident that, when Luke called him on it at Endor, he didn't even bother to deny it.
Paranoia is defined as a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. These are not traits that I see in Palpatine. He may have a healthy sense of mistrust (a smart move given his position), but that is not the same thing.
| Quote: | 2) Some comic book had Palpatine allowing some Grand Moffs to create their own stormtroopers without any loyalty to the Emperor resulting in an attempted coup or assassination.
3) On the other hand other sources state that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal to the Emperor. (2) and (3) are in conflict.[/list]As I said previously I find (2) highly unlikely and I reject it in favor of (3). |
So, just to be clear, your version of the canon does not accept the Crimson Empire comic series (Carnor Jax), the Star Wars: Empire series (featuring the "faked" stormtroopers), or Colonel Ven Northal (Cracken's Rebel Operatives), because all of these go against the official "canon" line that all Stormtroopers (and by extension the RG, since they are selected exclusively from the Stormtrooper Corps), are fanatically loyal and would never turn against Palpatine.
And then you turn around and try to assert that the Guard, with this weapon, is a threat to Palpatine because they could potentially be disloyal and turn it on him. You are arguing two points that contradict each other. As I said before, pick one. You can't have both.
| Quote: | | Of course that doesn't really help you any since you apparently must accept all canon so both (2) and the even more wacky comic with Carnor Jax featuring at least one traitorous Imperial Guard. |
The assertion that all stormtroopers are fanatically loyal is not found in any of the films or novels. The first reference I can find to it is in WEG material, which has already been contradicted by the prequels multiple times, and retconned as a result. In this case, I explain it by saying that all clone stormtroopers are fanatically loyal, and would never ever turn on Palpatine. However, by the time of ANH, the stormtrooper corps is no longer composed exclusively of Clones. It now contains non-clone recruits who either met or far exceeded stormtrooper standards of both skill and loyalty. Those members of the stormtrooper corps are just as loyal to the Emperor, with a few notable exceptions, a handful of individuals who became disillusioned (Ven Northal) or too ambitious for their own good (Carnor Jax). In addition, on one occasion, a group of ambitious Grand Moffs plotted to overthrow the Emperor, and created a small contingent of stormtroopers with modified flash imprinting, so that their loyalty was to the conspirators, not the Emperor (in essence, "fake" stormtroopers).
| Quote: | | This supports my point (1), that Palps shouldn't trust his Imperial Guard so much that he gives them your superguns. You haven't explained why he should take that additional risk in light of multiple 'canon' sources of treachery within the stormtrooper and IG ranks. |
I refer to my earlier point about Palpatine's overconfidence, and also your inability to come down on either side of the loyalty of stormtroopers, or lack thereof.
| Quote: | | (A) It is at least theoretically possible that an IG could somehow be suborned or go rogue. Your comics sources rely on this. So it is something you must and do admit is possible. The question then is how many guards will it take to be a threat. |
I refer to my previous post about how difficult a target Palpatine would be, not to mention that the rogue Guard would, in all likelihood, be fighting off anywhere from 1-5 of his own comrades while trying to kill the Emperor.
| Quote: | | (B) Affect mind could be used to affect an IG. Not by any means an easy roll, but if OB1 or Yoda are out there somewhere Palps has to consider it. In addition Vader has the power and could use this as part of an attempt to eliminate his master and become the head Sith, like Palps did to his master. So Palps must factor an attempt on his life by his Sith pupil. |
Affect Mind could potentially work, but the Difficulty would be extremely high. In this case, the Affect Mind user would be forcing the Guardsman to make an act diametrically opposed to a fundamental part of his identity (killing the person he would gladly lay down his own life to protect). If I had to make up a Difficulty number for that on the spot, it would be Heroic, at an absolute minimum. And even if the Affect Mind adept succeeds, the Guard in question would still have to make it past Palpatine's Danger Sense, and all the attendant issues of Palpatine having the chance to get in the first strike.
| Quote: | | (C) An assassin could be substituted for an Imperial Guard. The biometric stuff in your supergun would be likely to thwart that, unless it is part of an inside job - see A and B above. In fact a disloyal IG officer could, at least theoretically, replace other IGs with paid assassins. Vader is certainly capable of that. |
See my answer to A above. Even if the assassin is substituted, he still has to get past Palpatine's personal defenses, to say nothing of the layers of defenses the assassin would have to penetrate to get to that point. How does he get the Guard uniform? How does he get the necessary access codes to penetrate into the Imperial Palace's inner sanctum?
| Quote: | | (D) 1's on the wild die. |
IIRC, FPs, CPs and DSPs can all be spent after the dice roll to counter a bad result. And its not like Palpatine is lacking in any of those three point values.
| Quote: | | Palpatine's farseeing is not infallible - he failed to anticipate Luke and, after RotS, he appears unaware of OB1 and Yoda. His danger sense may not be infallible either. Certainly Palps' master's danger sense was not infallible and if we believe his blather about Darth Plagueis he has still not yet mastered everything his master knew.[/list] |
Key word: might. Perhaps there is some way around it, but all examples of this seem to revolve around other powerful Force users (which excludes the Guard). As far as the game rules are concerned, a Force user with Danger Sense up will always have initiative against a non-Force user, and will know of the impending attack the round before it happens. In the case of other Force users (such as the Sovereign Protectors), they may only counter by adding their Control roll to increase the Difficulty (which only amounts to 2D-3D, IIRC). As such, even Palpatine's Force sensitive Guard members do not have the skill level necessary to occlude his Danger Sense. Only high level adepts like Vader, Luke, Obi-wan or Yoda come close.
| Quote: | | So how do you reconcile the canon of fanatically loyal stormtroopers with the comic book traitors within the ranks of the ostensibly even more loyal Imperial Guard with your notion that Palps would equip the IG, including the disloyal, with superguns? |
See my above remark on the loyalty of clone troopers as opposed to non-clone troopers, as well as my statements on Palpatine's overconfidence and formidable personal abilities, bolstered by the following quote from the Imperial Sourcebook: ""The Imperial Royal Guard is a special detachment of hand-picked Imperial stormtroopers who serve as the Emperor's personal guards. Each of these soldiers is specially scrutinized to fit select size, strength, intelligence and loyalty requirements, and equipment and training is lavished upon them". Lavish is defined as expending or bestowing profusely. To me, that means that the Guard gets the absolute best of everything, including advanced weaponry.
| Quote: | | I think forcepikes was the correct line. It's all the IG needs to show the Imperial courtiers the mailed fist in the Emperor's velvet glove. It's all the IG needs to engage lightsaber wielding Jedi terrorists. And agains blaster armed foes, the IG interpose their bodies in front of the Emperor literally taking the blaster hit for him. They don't need superguns to do the job of Imperial Bodyguard. |
Then why equip them with blaster pistols in the first place? If they are purely a defensive line, a better choice would've been personal deflector shields. And being equipped with only force pikes is fine if defense is their only mission, which it isn't (See above).
| Quote: | | You didn't need to explicitly say it. It is obvious from the stats of the supergun that it is designed (by you) as an anti-Jedi, anti-PC weapon. |
You're getting off point again. I repeat that the only thing I said was that the scattergun mode would be useful as an anti-Jedi weapon, not that that was the specific reason it was included. It is also very useful when taking down multiple attackers at close range, or removing obstructing inanimate objects, such as doors. Yes, the gun was designed to be a formidable threat to any PC, but if you are going to refer to my previous comments, at least make those references accurate.
| Quote: | | Not ignored. Just discounted since the point is the guard might get a shot off. It is very likely Palps will sense that. See A, B, C, and D above for examples where his danger sense might fail or be insufficient. |
See also my responses to A, B, C, and D above to address how highly unlikely it is that a non-FS Guard member (or even a minor FS like one of the Sovereign Protectors) has what it takes to override Palpatine's personal abilities.
| Quote: | | Sorry. Fair point. However, I notice you did not subtract MAPs for Danger Sense or for absorbing multiple shots. So net-net Palps is around a 50% or less chance to absorb multiple without spending CPs. I think the odds are that Palpatine will not be able to absorb multiple shots without spending CPs, which he has and to spare. |
Ok, I'll grant you the MAP on Danger Sense, as I doubt Palpatine would drop it just to pick up the extra 1D to put into Absorb/Dissipate, but not the MAPs for multiple shots with the scatterblaster, which I will address below.
| crmcneill wrote: | | From your recent write up I see that is only true for the 8D Blast Mode. No ROF is listed for the Scatter Mode, which lists first. Which in Star Wars means the ROF is limited only by the MAPs. So multiple 6D unparryable scatter shots are allowed. |
If you look again, you'll see that both the scatter mode and the blast mode are covered as different firing modes under the same weapon, and that the weapon is the one with the fire rate of 1/2, no matter which mode it is firing in. I specifically included the reduced fire rate to account for the small size, as the weapon needs to recharge and cool down from firing such a powerful shot before it can be fired again.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I'm not saying that he isn't paranoid at all, but I do think you're drastically overestimating it. |
And obviously I don't. I think we will just have to disagree on this point. |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | But Han's blaster is not just a hollow tube barrel. It has a some sort of add on at the end either for cooling or to enhance power or something. |
Fair enough, but the housing around the Blade gun's barrel is even bulkier, which is fitting considering its multiple functions. As far as the scope, it is an add-on to Han's pistol, and not essential to the functioning of a "stock" heavy blaster pistol. My gun also features a scope attachment, which would be in addition to the existing size of the Blade gun (although not as large as Han's, since the IG-7 scope is scomp-linked to the Guard's helmet).
| Quote: | | It also includes a scope attachment that increases the overall mass above a standard Mauser C-96. The add on to the blade gun extends 41 mm past the original MAC-11 barrel. That is hardly massive. |
Again, you are focusing on length and completely ignore the barrel extension's other dimensions. The mass of the gun is not defined by its length alone. Anyone looking at a picture of the two guns side by side would agree that the Blade gun is bulkier. And where exactly are you getting the 41mm measurement from?
| Quote: | | At least I looked at the measurements. It doesn't appear that you have. |
I wasn't aware I needed to until you started picking it apart. And that still doesn't explain why you so blithely ignored the measurements that don't support your argument.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sigh... I really hate quote wars.
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Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Sigh... I really hate quote wars. |
I am finding them tiresome as well and ultimately pointless. I apologize to others who were bored with the lengthy quotes. Once crmcneill has created a new tech toy, then like Humpty Dumpty, words (and canon) appear to mean whatever crmcneill wants them to mean "neither more nor less" and afterall, Ankhanu far more succinctly captured my response to the ultra-miniaturized supergun. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14083
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So, to reflect the helpful suggestions of the few (mostly just garhkal), these are the updated stats for the IG-7. For everyone else, I think we've established that you don't like it. Thank you for playing and good night.
Imperial Munitions IG-7 Assault Blaster Pistol
Model: Imperial Munitions IG-7
Type: Assault Blaster Pistol
Skill: Blaster: IG-7 Assault Blaster Pistol
Ammo: 100
Cost: 5,000 (Power Packs: 50) (Not Available For Sale. The posted price is the price of materials and constructed for an individual model).
Availability: 4, X
Range: 3-10/30/120
Damage: 5D
Special Features:
Auto-Fire Mode
-Pistol fires in rapid fire mode, with each "shot" consuming 5 shots from the pistol's power pack.
-Provides a +1D bonus that can be applied either to damage or targeting.
Sniper Mode
-Uses needlebeam technology and an internal gyro-stabilizer to make accurate shots at extreme range.
-Range: 3-10/60/240*
*Long range shots are at +5 difficulty unless the scomp-link scope is used.
-Damage: 4D
-Fire Rate: 1/2
-Ammo: Each shot in Sniper Mode consumes 2 charges from the weapon's power pack.
-Bonus: +1D to hit at Medium and Long Range, -2D to hit at Point-Blank and Short Range.
Power Blaster
-Under-slung blast weapon can fire either a conical blast or a single powerful shot.
-A single shot in either mode consumes 10 shots from the pistol's power pack.
-Scatter Mode (Range: 0-1/2/4, Damage 6D/5D/3D. Affects all targets in a 45 degree arc. Targets within 2 meters may not dodge. Targets within 4 meters may attempts to dodge at -1D).
-Blast Mode (Range: 3-5/10/25, Damage 8D)
-Fire Rate: 1/2
Scomp-Linked Scope
A miniature multi-function scope is scomp-linked directly to the MFTAS in the Imperial Guardsman's helmet. In addition to interfacing with the pistol for long range shots in sniper mode, it also allows the Guardsman to use the gun to scan or shoot around corners without exposing himself to enemy fire.
Security System
-Each pistol is individually coded to the Guardsman to which it is issued, with a multi-spectrum bio-scanner built into the grip. It cannot be used by anyone other than the Guard to which it is issued, however, it can be temporarily integrated with another Guard's armor in emergencies (requires an Imperial Guard armor with an integrated access code and a verbal access code). If anyone other than the pistol's assigned Guardsman attempts to fire the pistol, they take a 5D stun charge delivered through a contact stunner in the hand grip.
-The pistol is also keyed to the comlink integrated into the Guardsman's armor. If the pistol is further than 50 meters away from the Guardsman for more than five minutes, the pistol's power pack overloads, exploding with a damage of 6D/4D/2D damage with a blast radius of 0-2/4/6.
-Attempting to reprogram the pistol to accept a new gunner requires three items.
--1) a specialized key (carried by each guardsman group leader).
--2) a second key carried by the supervising armorers for the royal guard unit.
--3) voice command override (only known to the engineers).
-Faking any of these require at least 2 Very Difficult Computer Programming rolls for item 1 or 2, and a Heroic con roll for 3. To be able to fake the roll also requires prior knowledge that the security systems exist.
-All details of the security system are unknown outside the Emperor's inner circle as of the Battle of Hoth. After Return of the Jedi, some lore of them does exist.
Capsule:
The Imperial Munitions IG-7 is a highly advanced weapon system constructed solely for the use of the Imperial Guard. While it is listed as an Imperial Munitions product, the weapon was designed, developed and built solely as a research project of the Imperial Guard Armory at their barracks complex in the Imperial Palace. All IG-7's are individually manufactured by armorer droids within the palace, and the designs, materials and specifications are kept on physically isolated data storage in the armory itself.
Larger and bulkier than a standard pistol, the IG-7 incorporates two separate blasters in an under-over configuration, and both weapons utilize advanced technology to perform a variety of functions, from normal semi-automatic blast fire, all the way up to sniper and anti-vehicle functions. The technology used is highly classified, and the only beings with access to it are Imperial Guard members who serve as the unit's armorers.
The top barrel functions as a riot blaster pistol, with selectable fire rate at either single shot or short bursts. In addition, the blaster can also function in a needle-beam mode, where the beam is focused to near one-dimensional proportions, greatly enhancing the range at the expense of damage. The design compensates for the loss of damage capacity by firing a high intensity shot that consumes two charges from the weapon's power pack. A gyroscopic stabilization system and scomp-linked helmet scope also enhanced the weapon's accuracy at long range.
The lower barrel is a compact yet powerful scatter-blaster, capable of firing a conical blast of energy that could hit multiple targets simultaneously. Additionally, the weapon's beam scattering system can be inverted, focusing the blaster's energy into a single linear blast of sufficient power to destroy a speeder.
In addition, to protect the top secret technology incorporated into the IG-7, it is fitted with a multi-layer security system, including a bio-metric security grip linked to a miniature contact stunner, and a timed self-destruct system that activates if the weapon is taken too far away from its assigned user.
The IG-7 is arguably one of the most formidable blaster weapons ever created. Very expensive and rare, it has only ever been seen in the hands of the Imperial Guard, and access to the weapon (or any information about it) is a secret closely held and zealously protected by the Guard. It is only carried by the Guard when they are in their formal uniforms, and is worn in a quick-draw holster concealed beneath their robes (+1D to quick draw rolls). |
I like the corrected one, other than i am still not seeing the sniper variant.. At most a broad spectrum close in beam, or the rapid fire..
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16230
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I like the corrected one, other than i am still not seeing the sniper variant.. At most a broad spectrum close in beam, or the rapid fire.. |
The sniper mode is based off of needle-beam blasters, which are found solely in Han Solo & The Lost Legacy. On one occasion, the villains are firing a needlebeam blaster rifle at a speeder carrying Han, Chewie & Co. prompting them to make a very unconventional exit from the freeway they are on. On the other, the gunman Gallandro fires a "tight beam" shot from his blaster pistol, taking out a war robot from a great distance.
The way I figure, a needle beam system is a modification that can be fitted to any blaster up to the size of a rifle. It uses a beam focusing system that compresses the beam down to a fraction of its normal diameter, greatly increasing beam coherency at range. The tradeoff is that the beam is so intense that it can actually punch straight through a character-scale target, inflicting less damage than a normal blaster bolt, as the excess energy actually passes straight through the hole already burned through the target.
In game terms, for every multiplier applied to the range, reduce the blaster's damage by -1D (Range x 2= -1D, Range x 3 = -2D, Range x 4 = -3D and so on). I haven't decided on a cap for how many multipliers would be available for purchase, but at some point, the drop-off in damage would make the blaster relatively useless as a weapon. I also haven't calculated up the cost, but I do think it should be a sliding scale, with the price increasing exponentially as the range increases arithmetically.
In the case of the IG-7, my original version was fitted with a x3 needlebeam, but I decided to downgrade it to a x2 instead. To compensate for the damage reduction, the IG-7 is equipped to fire a high-intensity blast in needlebeam mode (using two normal ammo charges). The trade-off for the high-intensity charge is that the weapon is limited to a fire rate of 1/2, as the weapon needs time to cool and recharge from the sniper shot.
In addition, if fitted to a weapon like a pistol, needlebeam shots at long range go up +5 in difficulty unless some sort of integrated scope is used.
The only problem is that, in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, Han calls the range on Gallandro's shot at 50-60 meters, as if it was an incredibly difficult shot. However, WEG rules put the maximum range for a blaster pistol at 120 meters, so 50-60 is well within range of anyone with a standard blaster pistol. I haven't really come down on either side yet, but the concept is still there.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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