A Comment on a D6 Criticism that I have heard...

[Vartax]

The concept that my "peers" in Star Wars d6 could never get over was hitpoints, and the level system. While both of these are main attributes to the d20 system, and can be done, I've never felt as much excitement with the d20 Star Wars becuase I'm too bogged down with my level, or hitpoints. The d6 system is much simpler, and easy to grasp, especially for new RPGers.

[Volar the Healer]

There are things that cannot be done. But I'm too busy IRL to do such a detailed comparison right now. I'll do it Later.
_________________
Know Jesus, Know Peace.
No Jesus, No Peace

[Hellstorm]

Can someone AT LEAST give me ONE example, it would probably help me understand the difference between the two. 8)
_________________
Tuco: "But if you miss you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco."
-The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Peter Griffin: "Embrace The Fear." -Family Guy

[Ragnar]

I'll get Rathe Ehtar to give u a good example...the MOG always tells me about it when we get into the "WEG is better" conversation.

[Hellstorm]

That would really be helpfull. 8)
_________________
Tuco: "But if you miss you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco."
-The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Peter Griffin: "Embrace The Fear." -Family Guy

[Son of Fire]

Ok Hell. Here is just a couple off the top of my head…

1) Yoda: Now after seeing AOTC, we know that he is capable of going quite, “ninja-fu” with a light sabre if needed. In the D20 system that would be handled by giving him a massive level, killer stats, and potentially a character class that would allow him the ability to do what we saw on film. Now to me, that does not fit. He is anything but physical. Yoda walks about faking his decrepitude? That’s not very Jedi like… misleading, lying and such. Frankly it just never sat well with me.
I always picture him as totally non-physical. Though is ineptitude to deal on a physical level was counter balanced with his mastery of the Force. The Force fights for him, and through him, and that’s what makes him kick butt. Now in the D6 system it’s easily explained, and fits well within my example (or so I think). His physical stats would be low, and his sabre skills would not be that great either. But when he uses Lightsabre Combat, well he is a force to be reckoned with. Because Yoda’s ability to fight is fuelled by his mastery in the Force, not by stats, just like how Lightsabre Combat is laid out in WEG.
I also think this keeps in line with his statement in TESB…
“Judge me by my size? And well you should not! For the Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is.” (I hope I quoted that properly).

2) Characters: I have said this before in other thread's, but oh well…Luke is not just a farm boy; Han is not just a smuggler, and Leia is not just a senator. In the D6 system you have the ability to develop when ever and where ever you like. Now it could be argued that the D20 system allows that too by allowing multi-classing. But if you look a little deeper, you see that it’s not at all the same thing. Multi-classing has requirements (stats, levels, etc.). D6 does not, and you spend your pips freely. In D20 you have a dependence on levels to determine where, how, and when you character will advance, in D6, you can put pips anywhere, anytime.
For example…would Luke just be a Jedi guardian? Hardly, he is a Jedi, and a Jedi is a Jedi is a Jedi. He seems to have as many powers as a Consular, with the combat abilities of a Guardian with the skills of a… I forget what the other ones called, but you get the picture. I have never heard mention of separate classes in the films, so that makes me think that there are no classes. A Jedi develops where they see fit, they should not be limited in that development. Where they desirer to place their pips for skills or powers is limited only by the direction where they wish to take your character, not by the limitations of a class.

Ok there are my two examples; hopefully they will illustrate the general idea of where we D6ers are coming from.
_________________
"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Ragnar]

Those are good points SOF. It's because of things like "levels" and "feats" and overcomplex stats that make D20 less fun. Actions that a starting level character in D6 could do during combat can't be done at starting level in D20. Also I feel like you have less control over your character in combat for things like "dodging" in D20 you don't roll to dodge it's all dependant on a number on your character sheet. At least with D6 you let the dice decide your fate in combat not just some number.

[Hellstorm]

[Ragnar]

OK, the point is D20 lacks the simplistic fun that D6 has. If you play D20 it feels too much like DnD but in the star wars universe, which makes it OVER COMPLICATED (hold on while i get out my +2Blaster Pistol). WEG keeps it simple and covers all the bases of star wars and it is easier just impliment your own ideas to fill in any holes that you might find.

Honestly...I can argue about which is better all day.

[Hellstorm]

Like I said I can't say which is better, since I don't have a WEG book but if you could help me check this question out for me it would help
8)

Would these be the ones I'm looking for ? I'm looking for the equivalent of a GM handbook and/or Player's handbook.

The Roleplayng Game
Oct/1987
WEG40001
0-87431-065-2

And

The Star Wars
Roleplaying Game:
Second Edition:
Revised and Expanded
Aug/1996
WEG40120
0-87431-268-X

From this List : http://www.rancorpit.com/WestEndGamesBooks.html
_________________
Tuco: "But if you miss you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco."
-The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Peter Griffin: "Embrace The Fear." -Family Guy

[Son of Fire]

Well Hell, you asked for some points, and I provided them. It seems that they can be explained in D20, just in a round about way that just does not gel. To me it just seems too much of a reach.

To address the Yoda issue again…
So we have a Jedi, who uses a walking stick, and a hover chair at every other point that we have seen him in the films. So we are left with two options. He is either faking his feebleness. Or he is genuinely infirm. So which is it?
If he has always had the ability why does he use a walking stick and a repulsor chair? It can’t be to mislead opponents, because we have seen that his reputation (as a great warrior) has preceded him in TESB and AOTC, so that would be pointless. If it were his age that is catching up with him, then it would not make sense for him to have high stats. So then what is it? The more and more we have to stretch to find the answer, the more convoluted it becomes and the less probable. Occam’s razor.

Now I tend to think the simplest answer is this….
Yoda is old and feeble, period. But that’s just the physical, in the Force; he is as strong, if not stronger than ever. He just happens to have Lightsabre Combat, and with his level of mastery of the Force he does not need stats to make him a formidable combatant.
In D6 when a Jedi utilizes Lightsabre Combat, the Jedi’s Lightsabre skill is just a footnote, literally it’s 1/3rd of what let’s them hit and do damage. The Jedi adds their Sense dice to their Lightsabre skill, and their Control dice to their damage. So a Jedi need not have high stats, or even skills, to accomplish great feats with a Lightsabre. As long as their Force powers are high enough, they will more than compensate for a Jedi being in poor health, or lacking enough skill. Tough a Jedi with high Force powers and Lightsabre skill is truly frightening…like Luke or Vader.
Now to me, this situation seems to make the most sense, its simple, elegant, and fits very easily with what we have seen on screen without having to resort to the character lying or faking his weakness.

For the characters issue…
Whether or not you can gain different skills upon new levels is irrelevant, because once you achieve that new level you are again limited by your choices of class skills. Sure you can by cross class ones, but you get a hefty price with that. Think of it this way; say you wanted to have a Jedi character with really good offensive capabilities with the Force. But you also want him to be really sneaky. Now in the D20 system you have to wait till you get a level and then you can only spend your skill point in the allotted skills (say Scoundrel or Consular). In D6, you freely spend your pips anywhere you want, with no penalty or limitation. Think of it in D20 terms as customizing your character class at each and every level so you only spend where and when you want to, you don’t have to compromise in any fashion, what you want, is what you get.

Oh and I though of one other thing I am not to fond of in D20…
I don’t like that fact that you are limited in how often you can use Force powers. In D6 you can use them whenever you wish.

Ok, so hopefully I explained myself a bit better this time around.
_________________
"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw

[Hellstorm]

To address the Yoda issue
I think he is old and needs his walkin stick, what you see in AOTC is when he calls upon the force, a quote from the D20 book states that a Jedi should develop non-force skills too as to not totaly depend on the force (be able to do things for themselves) and I think thats what Yoda does, so on that I think we are basically in accord.

One thing I might have a problem with is two Jedis squaring off against one another and the one with less training with a lightsaber still being a formidable oppenent to the one that has extensive training seem a little absurd, If you are not trained to weild a lightsaber, then it should somehow show.

For the character issue
Since I don't have any WEG books I can't really tell you which is better, but nothing is stoping me from removing the different classes and giving the players a basic character and letting them develop them as they see fit (with my approval of course.

As for how often you can use your force Skills and Feats is only limited by the vitality cost (which is a pain, I agree, but there should be a price to pay to use these powers), thats probably why Jedis don't go around using their powers 24/7. also you can only "call upon the force" a limited number of time(dependant on level and heroic acts) (In D20 Calling Upon The Force gives you extra dices for skill, feats and attack but not damage).

P.S. could you help with this?

Would these be the ones I'm looking for ? I'm looking for the equivalent of a GM handbook and/or Player's handbook.

The Roleplayng Game
Oct/1987
WEG40001
0-87431-065-2

And

The Star Wars
Roleplaying Game:
Second Edition:
Revised and Expanded
Aug/1996
WEG40120
0-87431-268-X

From this List : http://www.rancorpit.com/WestEndGamesBooks.html

8)
_________________
Tuco: "But if you miss you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco."
-The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Peter Griffin: "Embrace The Fear." -Family Guy

[Loc Taal]

[Hellstorm]

Thanks Loc 8)
_________________
Tuco: "But if you miss you had better miss very well. Whoever double-crosses me and leaves me alive, he understands nothing about Tuco."
-The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

Peter Griffin: "Embrace The Fear." -Family Guy

[Son of Fire]

Well Hell, I think in the Yoda thing we are now on the same page. The long-winded posts of mine where just to let you understand my methodology, and why my opinion is that it is reflected better in the D6 system.
(But I still stand by the fact that the D20 SW looks ten times better…man it is one good-looking book. I wish WEG had that kind of quality.)

For the two Jedi’s squaring off thing…yes it could work in the favour of a Jedi that has minimal training in the Lightsabre over a Jedi that has had a decent amount of training. But that would be an extreme, and rare situation, like the Yoda one. Since most Jedi will have a competent level of training with a sabre and the force I think it would work out in their favour more often than not. But, in some extremely powerful Jedi (or Sith, Jensarri or whatever), their shear power, ability, and connection with the Force could compensate for lack of training with a sabre. That’s the nature of the Force though, and that’s why Jedi are the top of the food chain in the SW mythos.

To address the character issue again…
If in your game you would change how the class system is laid out in the book, then it’s a moot point, because my gripe is with the “official” D20 interpretation of SW.

For the Force usage point…
See now that will never sit well with me. It would if I had ever seen a Jedi get too tired, or weak, or even to drained to wield his Force powers, but in the films I have just never seen that. I have seen a Jedi that was wounded who could not wield them to the fullest potential, and that is covered with the wound system (among others) of D6.
I think the reason they don’t use the Force at ever turn is because they believe that frivolous use of the Force is just another potential path to the Dark Side, (kind of like “power corrupts”, and we can all attest that in the SW universe, the Force is the ultimate power). Also, in the D6 rulebook 2nd edition rev it mentions something about creating “ripples” in the Force ever time it’s used. Kind of like rocks in a pond, big ones make big ripples, but a bunch of little ones make a lot of ripples too. These act like a signal and you basically give away your position every time you use the Force. The whole “I sense a disturbance in the Force” shtick, at least that would be my guess.

And BTW, I think I have a copy of that on PDF.
_________________
"My schooling not only failed to teach me what it professed to be teaching, but prevented me from being educated to an extent which infuriates me when I think of all I might have learned at home by myself." - George Bernard Shaw