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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed. I prefer a rule that doesn't require a mass recalculation of stats, even on a limited basis.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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I like this new scale system and am likely to implement it in my next game but with one change, I'm going to flip the Walker and Starfighter scales, as I feel that Starfighter scale craft should be tougher than Walker scale craft.
That said I am also thinking of making Walker scale starfighters when I need a weaker or older model starfighter.
I can see and understand your thinking but it doesn't sit right wth me. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:59 am Post subject: |
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The problem there is that flipping Walker and Starfighter using this system puts Starfighters only 2D below Starship (the low end Capital Ships) which really shifts the balance of power. My previous version of this scale put Walker and Starfighter at the same Scale, and that may suit your purposes better.
For myself, while Walkers are comparable in size to Starfighters (AT-STs are comparable in dimensions to TIE fighters, and AT-ATs compare similar in size to light freighters), yet are slower and less maneuverable but heavily armored, moving them up in scale was the only way to resolve it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | Which begs the question:
Why even bothering with a Scaling System to begin with?
If you want to reduce the number of Dice you have to roll, why not just use a general rule like "If both sides have to roll more then YD, substract 1D from each side until one of them reached a value equal to or below YD".
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Because it wouldn't work whenever the difference between scales was greater than 7D. For example, in a fight between a Death Star and some Capital Ships there is a 12D scale difference (by RAW), so by the time you get the Death Star's Hull down to 7D, you've "zeroed out" all the capital ship weapons. And, using the "universal" scale a Death Star's Superlaser would never be able to hit anything -by the time you reduced the target's maneuverability down to 7D, the Superlaser's attack dice would be well below 0D. |
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | The problem there is that flipping Walker and Starfighter using this system puts Starfighters only 2D below Starship (the low end Capital Ships) which really shifts the balance of power. My previous version of this scale put Walker and Starfighter at the same Scale, and that may suit your purposes better.
For myself, while Walkers are comparable in size to Starfighters (AT-STs are comparable in dimensions to TIE fighters, and AT-ATs compare similar in size to light freighters), yet are slower and less maneuverable but heavily armored, moving them up in scale was the only way to resolve it. |
Which would represent tramp freighters and other small starships, them only being slightly tougher than starfighter sounds okay to me, will have to try a few Playtests and see how it goes.
If it turns out that a players ship becomes a little tougher for TIE's to shoot down I've no problems with that. Couple that with Starships most likely mounting starfighter scale weapons or at least legitimate freighters as that is all they could get permits for the fight is fairly balanced. Though will have to see how that plays out  |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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You're missing the point. Starship is the small capital ships: Corellian gunships up to Dreadnaughts and Interdictors. Space transports and the like are still Starfighter scale.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah I would have boosted all the space transports to Starship scale keeping all the fighters and very small ships like the Lambda etc as Starfighter scale. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I really like what you've done with this, crmcneill, and am considering adopting it.
FWIW, I completely agree with Walkers being a bit tougher than starfighters.
So the Juggernaut still needs to be adjusted? Any others from the books that you guys know of that are very out of whack?
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| wildfire wrote: | | Ah I would have boosted all the space transports to Starship scale keeping all the fighters and very small ships like the Lambda etc as Starfighter scale. |
My interim idea was to have Walkers and Starfighters in the same basic category as far as weapons (ranges, damage levels, etc.), but with Walkers having a +2D bonus to resist damage and Starfighters having a +2D bonus to maneuverability. It would've looked more like this:Character 0D
Cycle +2D
Speeder +4D
Starfighter/Walker +8D
Starship +12D
Capital Ship +16D
Dreadnought +20D
Death Star +24D
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | I really like what you've done with this, crmcneill, and am considering adopting it.
FWIW, I completely agree with Walkers being a bit tougher than starfighters. |
Glad you like it. 8)
| Quote: | | So the Juggernaut still needs to be adjusted? Any others from the books that you guys know of that are very out of whack? |
Actually, IMO, the Juggernaut is fine where it is. Here's a basic list (from the three core sourcebooks) of which ships and vehicles fit where in the new scale system:
Dreadnought:
-Super Star Destroyer
Capital Ship:
-Imperial Star Destroyer
-Victory Star Destroyer
-Torpedo Sphere
-Mon Calamari Cruiser
Starship:
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser (the Turbolaser Batteries are Capital-Scale)
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser
-Escort Carrier
-Carrack Light Cruiser
-Alliance Bulk Carrier
-Star Galleon
-Nebulon B Frigate
-Lancer-Class Frigate
-Corellian Corvette
-Corellian Gunship
-System Patrol Craft
-Assault Shuttle
-Blastboat
-Luxury Liner
-Container Ship
-Bulk Transport
-Medium Transport
Walker:
-AT-AT
-AT-ST (possibly moved down to Speeder-Scale with bonus dice to Hull)
-Juggernaut
-Mobile Command Base
-Chariot Command Speeder (possible)
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Heavy Tracker
-Speeder Truck
-Sail Barge
Starfighter:
-All starfighter types
-Cloud Cars
-Light Freighters
-Space Barges
Speeder:
-Landspeeders
-Airspeeders
-Compact Assault Vehicle
-ULAV
-Tramp Shuttle
-Skiff
Cycle:
-Speeder Bikes
-Swoops
-Repulsor Sled
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks so much for doing all the heavy lifting on this! 8)
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14055
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Of your list, some of those ships you have in the 'starship cat' i would keep in the cap ship area..
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser (the Turbolaser Batteries are Capital-Scale)
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser
-Chariot Command Speeder (possible) i would definitely shift down to speeder scale, but up the damage output of its weapon a little to compensate.
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Speeder Truck
Same with these 3.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Of your list, some of those ships you have in the 'starship cat' i would keep in the cap ship area..
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser (the Turbolaser Batteries are Capital-Scale)
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser |
Seeing as how scale is primarily a function of size (which is one of the reasons the Starfighter / Walker scale thing is proving such a headache), I had to draw the line somewhere, and I chose to draw the line at the Victory Star Destroyer (900 meters). All the ships you list are below 900 meters in length, so they stayed starship scale.
There is another reason, as well. When comparing Hull dice values, the smaller ships seem a little too tough compared to larger ships like the ISD. Just for comparative purposes:ISD I - 1600m, 7D/3D (10D)
ISD II - 1600m, 7D+1/2D+2 (10D)
MC80 - 1200m, 6D/3D (9D)
Victory I - 900m, 4D/3D+1 (7D+1)
Victory II - 900m, 4D+2/3D (7D+2)
Dreadnaught - 600m, 5D+2/2D+1 (8D)
Assault Cruiser - 700m, 5D/3D (8D)
Interdictor -600m, 5D/3D (8D)
Strike Cruiser - 450m, 6D/2D+2 (8D+2)
Notice that, even though it far outsizes all the ships you mentioned, the Victory ends up being the weakest ship on the list. I decided to draw the line here so that it would adjust the obvious inequity of the various ships' ability to absorb damage comparative to their size and missions. Since a Capital Ship is, by definition, a navy's largest and most important warships, I decided to limit that class to ships that truly qualified (star destroyers, star cruisers, etc.) leaving the Starship/Escort class to the smaller, more numerous vessels of the fleet.
| Quote: | -Chariot Command Speeder (possible) i would definitely shift down to speeder scale, but up the damage output of its weapon a little to compensate.
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Speeder Truck
Same with these 3. |
Again, it comes down to a size issue. The Speeder Truck is already Walker scale, per the Alliance Sourcebook. The Chariot is 11.8 meters long, the Hoverscout is 15.9 meters long, and the Freerunner is 14.6 meters long, making them far larger than typical land speeders or airspeeders. As such, moving them up in scale makes perfect sense.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2260
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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It sounds like you've put a lot of careful thought and care into your classifications, crmcneill.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16202
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | It sounds like you've put a lot of careful thought and care into your classifications, crmcneill. |
It would seem so, yet not enough to answer the whole Walker / Starfighter / Space Transport question to my satisfaction. I like the way the Starship / Capital Ship / Dreadnought aspect turned out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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