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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Not going into the whole arguement, but Id assume that any paranoid dictator (sith nor not) wouldnt count on absolute loyalty from his troops. Even the hardcore fanatical ones. This would obviously be the case for Palpatine as well.... |
Perhaps, but I would argue that the rules may be somewhat different for a dictator who can see the future, sense attacks before they happen, read minds, etc.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Some of your responses to Bren come across as sounding like, "Don't disagree with me." |
If you read back through the posts, you will find that Bren is not the only person who has stated that they don't like this gun, for a variety of reasons. However, out of all of those, Bren is the only one I'm arguing with. I posted the stat knowing that it was a bit over the top, and that it would not meet universal acceptance or approval. Garhkal, on the other hand, stated that he liked the gun and made some suggestions as to changes, which I then incorporated into the existing stats.
The reason I am still arguing with Bren is two-fold: He is essentially telling me that this weapon I've posted wouldn't work because 1) in his SWU, the Emperor is a paranoid who wouldn't trust his own personal bodyguard with advanced weaponry, and 2) based on his view of SW technological development, the weapon could not be the size I've designed it to be. These are his personal opinions, which are rightfully his to hold, but which I disagree with, as is my right. When he tells me that something I wrote up for my campaign wouldn't work for reasons that are particular to his SWU, he is going to far. Therefore, I feel compelled to defend my point.
I do not mind criticism, so long as it is constructive, and I have gotten some excellent ideas for making changes to stats that I have written up. That does not mean that I am required to make every change suggested or throw out a stat just because it is not met with universal acclaim. Nor does it mean that I am not allowed to defend my point of view. At some point, criticism stops being constructive, and devolves to nothing more than opinionated ramblings. Don't like it? Fine; no one has a gun to your head telling you you have to use it, so thank you for your time.
EDIT: Also, I did appreciate your input with regards to how this discussion fits with your campaign. I don't agree with you on all points, but you mentioned some good points that I hadn't considered. In addition, it was very clearly presented, in a non-confrontational "this is just the way it is in my campaign" fashion.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Imperial Guard Blaster Pistol |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Bren wrote: | Premises:(C1) Crmcneill has been alive every day of his life from inception to today.
(C2) In the future it is possible that crmcneill may not be alive. |
 Which should not be interpreted as a veiled threat |
 It was intended as a homage to one of the most famous Aristotelian syllogisms:Major premise: All men are mortal.
Minor premise: Socrates is a man.
Conclusion: Socrates is mortal. I'm very sorry if anything threatening seemed to be implied. No threat was intended. |
Yeah, I got that, but not everyone on the internet would. I thought I should clarify. | crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Well how about an extremely rare long range disruptor carbine? Internals based on the MSD-32 with a longer barrel would provide enough epic to stave off the mundane, especially if somone is hit in the shin and then disintegrates in a blaze of light. |
It's a thought. My only objection would be if disruptors don't have a stun setting (which I'm pretty sure they don't), because that then precludes the possibility of taking a target unharmed (or intact). |
Disruptors, especially the MSD-32, certainly don't have a stun setting, but force pikes do!
I just think if shooting breaks out, the Royal Guard would not be interested in taking prisoners, except those who unconditionally surrender when they see their buddies reduced to a light dusting of grey powder.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneilI wrote: | | So, in your SWU, 20+ years after the Clone Wars, the stormtroopers have never once shown any sign of disloyalty. But that doesn't mean they won't ever be disloyal... Yeah, pretty much the same verbal bob-and-weave I was expecting. |
Well it's 18 years, but yes, as I stated. Why you find that astonishing I can't fathom since it is pretty much the canon story for stormies and exactly the canon story for Vader. And, by the way, logic isn't a "verbal bob-and-weave" that's subsumed under the more general heading of rhetoric. However ad-hominem is a well known logical fallacy where those lacking in valid arguments to support their position instead attack their opponent. | crmcneil wrote: | | I do not mind criticism, so long as it is constructive... |
Yet not all criticism can be constructive. Some ideas are just demonstrably bad.
You ask for thoughts and when the thoughts don't agree with, compliment, or complement your ideas you quickly launch into long defenses mixed with accusations of hypocricsy and slightly expurgated imprecations. I try not to act hypocritically and I find such accusations insulting and the imprecations annoyingly childish. It gets very, very old.
I have said any number of times in multiple threads that you are entitled to your SWU. I don't see who you "feel compelled to defend" your point to. Those who like your ideas have already told you so, those who don't have also stated their opinions - as you explicitly requested. And you have stated you don't need my agreement. So I can only conclude your vociferous and vehement defense with its insulting (and I believe unwarranted) charges of hypocrisy are about something other than your right to include your own ideas in your own SWU. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Not going into the whole arguement, but Id assume that any paranoid dictator (sith nor not) wouldnt count on absolute loyalty from his troops. Even the hardcore fanatical ones. This would obviously be the case for Palpatine as well.... |
Perhaps, but I would argue that the rules may be somewhat different for a dictator who can see the future, sense attacks before they happen, read minds, etc. |
Well, those powers are a bit fickle heh, otherwise the Emperor wouldnt have been on the second death star huh?
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Not going into the whole arguement, but Id assume that any paranoid dictator (sith nor not) wouldnt count on absolute loyalty from his troops. Even the hardcore fanatical ones. This would obviously be the case for Palpatine as well.... |
Perhaps, but I would argue that the rules may be somewhat different for a dictator who can see the future, sense attacks before they happen, read minds, etc. |
And also, if Palpatine would have been so sure of those powers, why would he have bothered with Order 66?
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My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Well it's 18 years, but yes, as I stated. Why you find that astonishing I can't fathom since it is pretty much the canon story for stormies and exactly the canon story for Vader. And, by the way, logic isn't a "verbal bob-and-weave" that's subsumed under the more general heading of rhetoric. However ad-hominem is a well known logical fallacy where those lacking in valid arguments to support their position instead attack their opponent. |
Yes, I'm aware of what argumentum ad hominem is. I'm curious; is there also a rhetorical term for ignoring someone's argument and calling an end to a quote war, then pretending that the valid arguments that do support the opposing position (and are sitting and waiting for a response a few pages back) never actually happened?
And no, it does not surprise me in the slightest that you can argue two opposing points in support of the same position, and when called on it do a logical double back-flip and land squarely in the middle. I told you once already that you'd make a great politician.
| Quote: | | crmcneil wrote: | | I do not mind criticism, so long as it is constructive... |
Yet not all criticism can be constructive. Some ideas are just demonstrably bad. |
Apparently I missed the memo informing everyone that you were the one who got to make that decision. The only thing you've demonstrated so far is that you don't like the gun for your own reasons, and that it would never make an appearance in your game. Which works fine for me; I wasn't asking you to.
The accusations of hypocrisy came out because you have reminded me repeatedly that we are all entitled to run our own SWU the way we see fit, but then you turn around and lambast an idea that you personally don't like, all because it doesn't fit into your own personal idea of what the SWU should be. In essence, you are using the "do as I say, not as I do" approach.
As to why I feel compelled to defend it? Mostly because you keep responding. What can I say? I'm compulsive like that. And in case you haven't noticed, you're the only one I'm still arguing with, even though several others have also said that they don't like the idea. Even those who have liked the gun have suggested changes, and I haven't "launched into long defenses mixed with accusations of hypocricsy (sic) and slightly expurgated imprecations" with any of them. Just you. And it's not like this is the first time that's happened, either. As to why that is? Who knows? Maybe you and I just bring out the worst in each other.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Perhaps, but I would argue that the rules may be somewhat different for a dictator who can see the future, sense attacks before they happen, read minds, etc. |
Well, those powers are a bit fickle heh, otherwise the Emperor wouldnt have been on the second death star huh? |
Ha. True enough. There's a phrase that I read in a fan fiction somewhere that covers my perspective here pretty well; Jedi and other Force users, by their very existence are agents of change. The Force is always in motion, but never more so than when Jedi or other Force sensitives are involved, as every action they make ripples through the Force.
It's a little poetic, but it ties in well with the WEG rules for most of the predictive Force powers, in that only Force sensitives have the ability to counter abilities like Danger Sense. Only high-level Jedi (like Luke and Vader) would have the ability to disrupt Palpatine's senses in this regard.
Plus, I've made the point in another post about Palpatine's overconfidence. I mean, here is a guy who is arguably the most powerful Sith Lord ever. He has brought down the entire Jedi Order, overthrown the Republic, and has converted the most powerful Force user ever to exist over to his side. Above and beyond his considerable Force skills, he controls an armed force numbering in the trillions, two separate intelligence organizations that feed him vast amounts of information, and on top of that, he has structured his entire Empire on greed and selfishness, so that everyone is in it for themselves, and any attempt at treachery or betrayal has an odds-on chance of being betrayed from within or falling apart due to infighting (not to mention the odds that ISB or II will discover the plot).
Endor was his trap; he let the Alliance know where the Death Star was and that he was going to be there. He had a massive fleet ready and waiting, and he had the Death Star's superlaser operational (unknown to the Rebels), and everything was going perfectly until Luke managed to reawaken Anakin Skywalker. In game terms, what with Palpy focusing on Force Lightning (and either Battle Meditation or Enhanced Coordination, if you accept the Heir to the Empire trilogy as canon), he failed his Danger Sense roll, and Anakin got in one good shot. Luke called him on his overconfidence before the duel, and he was right, even if he was the person in the galaxy most likely to have a right to be overconfident.
| Quote: | | And also, if Palpatine would have been so sure of those powers, why would he have bothered with Order 66? |
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Explain?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="crmcneill"] | Bren wrote: | | Yes, I'm aware of what argumentum ad hominem is. |
Good so you know both what you are doing and what it is called. Good to know.
| Quote: | | I'm curious; is there also a rhetorical term for ignoring someone's argument and calling an end to a quote war, then pretending that the valid arguments that do support the opposing position (and are sitting and waiting for a response a few pages back) never actually happened? |
No formal name that I am aware of. I have noticed it is a device of which you seem fond, having seen you use it in this and other threads.
| Quote: | | And no, it does not surprise me in the slightest that you can argue two opposing points in support of the same position, and when called on it do a logical double back-flip and land squarely in the middle. I told you once already that you'd make a great politician. |
From context and tone you seem to intend that as an insult, but as it has been said that "politics is the art of compromise--the art of the possible" and compromise to get to what is possible is frequently what rational adults do to get along with each other and succeed in a civilized and interdependent society. So in return I will only say, "Why thank you. How flattering."
| Quote: | | The accusations of hypocrisy came out because you have reminded me repeatedly that we are all entitled to run our own SWU the way we see fit, but then you turn around and lambast an idea that you personally don't like, all because it doesn't fit into your own personal idea of what the SWU should be. In essence, you are using the "do as I say, not as I do" approach. |
No in essence I am saying two things: (1) the supergun idea is silly and technologically unsupportable based on the other movie and SWRPG hand weapons we have seen and its issuance to his personal guards by a treacherous Sith tyrant seems highly unlikely and out of character and (2) you are entitled to have a supergun or any other idea, no matter how silly anyone thinks it is, in your SWU. Why you just can't seem to grasp that these two points are unrelated, I fail to understand.
You appear to use the word "personal" and "personal idea" a lot in a pejorative sense. That seems odd, since virtually everything any of us post here is our 'personal idea' or an idea with which we personally happen to agree or disagree. So of course I sometimes lambast ideas with which I disagree. It would be rather odd, after all, if I applauded them, would it not?
| Quote: | | As to why that is? Who knows? Maybe you and I just bring out the worst in each other. |
I suspect it is far more likely that you feel that failing to respond will somehow be seen as an admission that you are wrong. Which is ironic, since how can you really be wrong about liking your own idea?
For myself, I am rather stubborn and I tend to take a lot of pride in my reason and articulation. Thus I often fail to overcome my knee jerk response to correct those that misunderstand or misinterpret my writings. I try to do that in a nonconfrontational way, but I must confess that careless use of pejoratives and what appears to be complete unwillingness to see another point of view makes it harder for me to walk away from a discussion, even a frustrating and tedious discussion like this one. But it appears we are at a point, once again, where I must walk away from this discussion.
Although I await your all-to-predictable response, I optimistically hope you will finally prove me wrong on that score. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
| Quote: | | And no, it does not surprise me in the slightest that you can argue two opposing points in support of the same position, and when called on it do a logical double back-flip and land squarely in the middle. I told you once already that you'd make a great politician. |
From context and tone you seem to intend that as an insult, but as it has been said that "politics is the art of compromise--the art of the possible" and compromise to get to what is possible is frequently what rational adults do to get along with each other and succeed in a civilized and interdependent society. So in return I will only say, "Why thank you. How flattering."
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Not to try and ruffle anyone's feathers here, but I think what's at the root of the issue is that neither of you are willing to compromise. Otherwise you wouldn't still be arguing. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think people compromise too easily nowdays, and become compromised as a result. I'm just wondering whether this is what you two really want to stick to your guns over.
If I read correctly, crmcneill thinks that a multimode blaster is plausible, and Bren doesn't. Bren thinks the Emperor is careful to conservatively equip his guardsmen, and crmcneill doesn't. Both of you are okay with each other thinking different things and seem to be concerned mostly with the other's methods of persuasion. Neither of you are resistant to the idea of persuasion, though, so why not just sit back a moment and remember that neither of you thinks the other is a horrible person?
The fact of the matter is that there isn't a fact in this matter. It's a made up world, and as such is a just bunch of gaps in understanding strung together with barely enough coherent thought to give it form. What you guys are disagreeing over simply hasn't been settled, so it's impossible to prove yourself right or another wrong.
So why not stick to what we can find out for sure? What would make the game more fun? My personal thinking is the supergun would certainly add more challenge to a fight against the guards, but maybe not in the best way. Is the complexity really worth it? I wouldn't want to try and remember all those rules as a GM, much less try and figure out what was going on as a player. Are the guards the best choice for people to have it, or would it work better as a prototype stolen by a bounty hunter or assasin?
I'm not trying to step in and tell you guys how to use the forums or what you should do, but useful bits of information hidden in quote wars are more difficult and less pleasant to try to find than hay in a needle stack.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The fact of the matter is that there isn't a fact in this matter. |
Well said, Fallon. I was in the process of writing up a response, but I think I'll let it lie for now, as the above statement pretty much covered my main sticking point. Neither of our points can be conclusively proven or disproven, so to each his own, in his own version of the SWU.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Your comment was well thought and out, articulate, and very timely. Thanks Fallon Kell. 
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I'm not trying to step in and tell you guys how to use the forums or what you should do, but useful bits of information hidden in quote wars are more difficult and less pleasant to try to find than hay in a needle stack. |
Well this statement is hard to argue with. Even for me.  |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Perhaps, but I would argue that the rules may be somewhat different for a dictator who can see the future, sense attacks before they happen, read minds, etc. |
Well, those powers are a bit fickle heh, otherwise the Emperor wouldnt have been on the second death star huh? |
Ha. True enough. There's a phrase that I read in a fan fiction somewhere that covers my perspective here pretty well; Jedi and other Force users, by their very existence are agents of change. The Force is always in motion, but never more so than when Jedi or other Force sensitives are involved, as every action they make ripples through the Force.
It's a little poetic, but it ties in well with the WEG rules for most of the predictive Force powers, in that only Force sensitives have the ability to counter abilities like Danger Sense. Only high-level Jedi (like Luke and Vader) would have the ability to disrupt Palpatine's senses in this regard.
Plus, I've made the point in another post about Palpatine's overconfidence. I mean, here is a guy who is arguably the most powerful Sith Lord ever. He has brought down the entire Jedi Order, overthrown the Republic, and has converted the most powerful Force user ever to exist over to his side. Above and beyond his considerable Force skills, he controls an armed force numbering in the trillions, two separate intelligence organizations that feed him vast amounts of information, and on top of that, he has structured his entire Empire on greed and selfishness, so that everyone is in it for themselves, and any attempt at treachery or betrayal has an odds-on chance of being betrayed from within or falling apart due to infighting (not to mention the odds that ISB or II will discover the plot).
Endor was his trap; he let the Alliance know where the Death Star was and that he was going to be there. He had a massive fleet ready and waiting, and he had the Death Star's superlaser operational (unknown to the Rebels), and everything was going perfectly until Luke managed to reawaken Anakin Skywalker. In game terms, what with Palpy focusing on Force Lightning (and either Battle Meditation or Enhanced Coordination, if you accept the Heir to the Empire trilogy as canon), he failed his Danger Sense roll, and Anakin got in one good shot. Luke called him on his overconfidence before the duel, and he was right, even if he was the person in the galaxy most likely to have a right to be overconfident.
| Quote: | | And also, if Palpatine would have been so sure of those powers, why would he have bothered with Order 66? |
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Explain? |
To begin with, just look at precognition, its impossible to see perfectly into the future, Jedis involved in said future or not.
Regarding Order 66, if those powers would be so fool-proof, then there would be little meaning in issuing order 66. The Jedi-masters would just have foreseen it and countered the plot...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | To begin with, just look at precognition, its impossible to see perfectly into the future, Jedis involved in said future or not. |
True, but Palpatine does seem to depend on it ("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." "I have foreseen it."). The way I play it, the more powerful an evil NPC is in the Force, the better the precognition works. However, the times when it does fail are at critical moments in the plot, like the battle of Endor, or Luke and Mara vs. C'baoth at Mt. Tantis. It's a lot of fun to face a gloating enemy telling you that your end is inevitable, and that you are destined to lose / kneel before him, right up until the moment he stops a blaster bolt or tries to parry a lightsaber with his neck. To me, that overconfidence (warranted or otherwise) makes the villain much more SWU than some paranoid hiding in a bunker somewhere (although those do have their places too).
| Quote: | | Regarding Order 66, if those powers would be so fool-proof, then there would be little meaning in issuing order 66. The Jedi-masters would just have foreseen it and countered the plot... |
The theory posited in the ROTS novel is that the chaos of war, with millions dying and Jedi using the Force lavishly in battle, disrupted precognition to a great degree. Whether or not it had the same effect on Palpatine was never stated, but he did have other sources of information, in that the Jedi and Republic Intel reported to him, and he was secretly controlling the Separatists as well. AFAIR, there is no verbal evidence in the prequels that Palpatine depended heavily on precognition, but it can't be discounted.
Personally, I would think that, while powerful Jedi like Yoda would have the ability to foresee it coming, Sidious ability to disguise his presence in the Force would extend to precognition, so long as he didn't make any overt moves against the Jedi. Once the Clone Wars began, and the resulting disruption obstructed the Jedi's view of the future, he could move more freely. Even then, however, he still fought the war almost entirely by proxy, only directly battling the Jedi at the climax of his plot. In the end, my opinion is that, if the Force user is powerful enough, precognition is near infallible, if conditions are ideal. A powerful Force user who can conceal himself from precognition, combined with the chaos on and disturbance in the Force that results from a galaxy-wide war, and precognition is rendered relatively useless.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hold on do Imperial Guardsmen get disarmed on such a regular basis that they need a standard piece of kit to counter this? I'd have figured if you screwed up that bad just once you'd be out of the club. |
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