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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16204
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | See, there you go again. You are taking my statement, misinterpreting it, and then responding as if your misinterpretation is what I meant. |
The licensor (the Lucas group of companies) obviously didn't agree with your point of view that the WEG game was not Star Wars. |
And what that has to do with my pointing out that you were misquoting me, I don't know, so I guess I will just ascribe it to your regular tactic of misdirection whenever you get called on a point you can't argue.
But since you bring it up...
Lucasfilm's concern (or lack thereof) for continuity in the SWU is well established. The accusation has been made that we, the fans, care more about it than Lucas does, and this accusation is not without merit. The current state of the EU is such that returning it to any state of true continuity is virtually impossible. Lucas himself, however, has made one official ruling on what is and what is not official: "the films, and any official material that does not contradict the films." That's from Lucas himself. Therefore, any material, WEG included, that contradicts the films is not "official" Star Wars. Doesn't mean you can't play like it is, but it is officially unofficial if it contradicts the films.
| Quote: | | The designers wanted to create a game where players could be play PCs like Luke Skywalker and Han Solo and both PCs would be viable and fun. Jedi being all powerful uber beings doesn't fit how Luke or Obi-Wan is portrayed in the first three films and certainly doesn't make for a very interesting RPG that includes non-Force users. |
More specifically, what the designers did do was hammer a Star Wars shaped peg into a D&D shaped hole, by balancing out the party so that all PC's are created equal. In the films, Jedi actually are that powerful. This is dealt with by making them face villains of equal power, or massed groups of less powerful villains, and by separating them from the rest of the party and giving the non-Jedi PC's missions of their own to complete, as well as villains of their own. Jedi also tend to be handicapped in other ways, such as orders from their superiors or more nebulous ethical concerns that keep them from using their power, even though they can.
That is Star Wars, and a game that is a true reflection of Star Wars would take those story telling factors into account. Instead, the Jedi has been reduced to the level of the party cleric.
IMO, playing a Jedi should be a challenge reserved for experienced players only, and it should be a challenging experience. Even during the Old Republic, Jedi were rare enough that a person could live out their whole lives without ever even being on the same planet as on. Jedi are supposed to be rare, powerful and special, not dumbed down so that the bounty hunter PC doesn't get his feelings hurt.
There are any number of ways this could've been dealt with. I like garhkal's disturbance in the Force rules, but I've been playing with ideas to take it even further. Working from the idea that Jedi are supposed to act in harmony with life and the Force in general, I've been playing with the idea of something called Harmony Points, in that the CPs a Jedi character earns are directly related to how many Harmony Points he has, and he loses Harmony Points every time he uses a Force power. The idea here is that, yes, a Jedi is far more powerful than the average PC, but if he wants to advance, he has to find creative ways to use that power so that he is acting in harmony with the Force, not getting hamstrung by a myopic game designer who couldnt think of any ideas apart from D&D's balanced party concept.
Another idea I have been working on is allowing the Jedi to use the Force offensively, but making it much more difficult, and still having the character risk picking up a DSP. as I have repeated ad nauseous, I want these powers to be hard for a Jedi to use and stay on the Light Side. Just because we see Luke do it doesn't mean that everybody with 1D each in Control, Sense and Alter should be able to do it too.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | WEG owed us an accurate reflection of the SWU in RPGS form. |
Owed!? Really? Your sense of entitlement and feeling of outrage on this topic is truly mind boggling. |
As is your arrogant presumption and blinkered inability to think outside of the box. Yes, they owed us. They took money to make a realistic duplication of the Star Wars universe. Instead, they twisted it around to make their own version that was almost like Star Wars, but not quite.
| Quote: | Thanks so much for your permission.  |
You're welcome, and thank you soooo much for making an issue out of something I wasn't denying in the first place.
| Quote: | | Obviously WEG's interpretation is not a more accurate interpretation of the movies than...the movies themselves. Really you can't get much more tautological than that. I just happen to like WEG's interpretation and their D6 rules system in general. It's why I play this game, rather then playing say D20 Star Wars or some other game. |
And that was all you ever had to say. I prefer the D6 system over all others, but when faced with a conflict between the RAW and the films, I give the films precedence, and change the RAW accordingly.
| Quote: | | As I have said ad nauseum, if you don't like it change it or find a different game. Perhaps you would find SAGA or D20 more to your taste. |
If anything, Saga and D20 are even worse. In addition to overly complicated rulesets, they are all about the balanced party concept, which I have already mentioned above.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | See, there you go again. You are taking my statement, misinterpreting it, and then responding as if your misinterpretation is what I meant. |
The licensor (the Lucas group of companies) obviously didn't agree with your point of view that the WEG game was not Star Wars. |
And what that has to do with my pointing out that you were misquoting me, I don't know, so I guess I will just ascribe it to your regular tactic of misdirection whenever you get called on a point you can't argue. |
I didn't think this was a difficult point to grasp. You supported and reinforced the claim that any game (WEG rules included) that doesn't reflect your vision and interpretation of the movies is not Star Wars. You seem unwilling to accept any vision other than your own. Ironically that includes that of the creator. I was pointing out that aspect of your one-true-wayism along with the irony of the chief advocate of canon ignoring the POV of the creators of Star Wars.
| Quote: | | More specifically, what the designers did do was hammer a Star Wars shaped peg into a D&D shaped hole, by balancing out the party so that all PC's are created equal. |
You and I have really different views of D&D and WEG. And the WEG templates are factually not equal.
| Quote: | | In the films, Jedi actually are that powerful. This is dealt with by making them face villains of equal power, or massed groups of less powerful villains, and by separating them from the rest of the party and giving the non-Jedi PC's missions of their own to complete, as well as villains of their own. Jedi also tend to be handicapped in other ways, such as orders from their superiors or more nebulous ethical concerns that keep them from using their power, even though they can. |
We will have to agree to disagree that Luke Skywalker in the first three films is "that powerful." However, I suspect your are predominantly referring to Darth Vader and to the Jedi in the prequels. I am not surprised that the souped up uber Jedi of the prequels were not covered in WEGs rules. Given the lack of time travel and all. Nor am I surpised that Vader as the main villain who physically confronts the heroes is superior to the heroes. That makes for a good movie.
| Quote: | | That is Star Wars, and a game that is a true reflection of Star Wars would take those story telling factors into account. Instead, the Jedi has been reduced to the level of the party cleric. |
Riggghtt...a cleric huh? You must be playing a very different kind of Star Wars than we are. Perhaps you would be happier with either duet style play then or a narrative/story teller type of game. I hear there a number of those on the market. That might allow for the Jedi centric style of play you seem to desire.
| Quote: | | Jedi are supposed to be rare, powerful and special, not dumbed down so that the bounty hunter PC doesn't get his feelings hurt. |
Fine as long as everyone is playing Jedi or the others don't mind being relegated to supporting character status.
| Quote: | | I've been playing with the idea of something called Harmony Points, |
Which would seem to substitue the GM's myopia for the game designers.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | | WEG owed us an accurate reflection of the SWU in RPGS form. |
Owed!? Really? Your sense of entitlement and feeling of outrage on this topic is truly mind boggling. |
As is your arrogant presumption and blinkered inability to think outside of the box. Yes, they owed us. They took money to make a realistic duplication of the Star Wars universe. Instead, they twisted it around to make their own version that was almost like Star Wars, but not quite. |
I just expected a game based on Star Wars. Lucky me. I got about what I expected. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16204
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I didn't think this was a difficult point to grasp. |
Even more misdirection, and you continue to insist on misquoting me. It isn't my vision and interpretation that I'm quoting; it is the official Lucasfilm position. I just happen to have them on my side on this one.
| Quote: | | You supported and reinforced the claim that any game (WEG rules included) that doesn't reflect your vision and interpretation of the movies is not Star Wars. You seem unwilling to accept any vision other than your own. Ironically that includes that of the creator. I was pointing out that aspect of your one-true-wayism along with the irony of the chief advocate of canon ignoring the POV of the creators of Star Wars. |
See, at this point, it seems you are just making random accusations without actually reading my posts. Go back and read it again. George Lucas, the creator of all things Star Wars specifically said that official Star Wars consists of the films and any EU material that does not cosnflict with the films. In the same statement he also made mention that people may do whatever they want in their own SWU, but that doesn't make it official.
Therefore, if the films say that Jedi are allowed to use Force Choke to some degree, but the WEG rules say he can't, there is a conflict. Since George's official position is that film material trumps EU material in the event of a contradiction, then it is George Lucas stated opinion that, in this case, the films are right and WEG is wrong. This is not just my position; it is George Lucas' position as well.
Now, as I have stated repeatedly and you seem incapable of comprehending is that I am not trying to force anyone to play my way just because I say so. All I have been doing is pointing out an inconsistency between official sources and clarifying what is official and what is not.
So, I know you won't read this, and in your next post you will accuse me of trying to force you to play your game my way, even though I have repeatedly stated that that is not my goal, but I will go ahead and say it again. Play your game however you want. Far be it from me to try and stop you. Just don't try and tell me that WEG got it right on this one, because it is the official position of George Lucas and Lucasfilm that, in the event of a conflict, the films are right and WEG is wrong. That won't change no matter how many times you try to misquote the messenger.
| Quote: | | We will have to agree to disagree that Luke Skywalker in the first three films is "that powerful." However, I suspect your are predominantly referring to Darth Vader and to the Jedi in the prequels. |
Well, that is the "official" position, after all.
| Quote: | | That might allow for the Jedi centric style of play you seem to desire. |
For now, I'll settle for a variant of the RAW that actually allows Jedi to use powers that the films say they can, as well as some that that relaxation of excessive ethical restriction infers may be allowable.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I've been playing with the idea of something called Harmony Points, |
Which would seem to substitue the GM's myopia for the game designers. |
Well, I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree.
| Quote: | | I just expected a game based on Star Wars. Lucky me. I got about what I expected. |
I read somewhere that you will always get what you expect if you lower your expectations far enough.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I didn't think this was a difficult point to grasp. |
Even more misdirection, and you continue to insist on misquoting me. It isn't my vision and interpretation that I'm quoting; it is the official Lucasfilm position. I just happen to have them on my side on this one. |
OK since you seem confused about what you wrote and what I responded to. Here's your quote:
| crmcneill wrote: | | Matthias put it very succinctly, so I will paraphrase him; [/b]diverging from the films (insofar as how things work in the SWU), in any way, shape or form, and for any reason, means that we are no longer playing Star Wars[/b], but now playing someone else's version of what they thought Star Wars should be. In essence, you are trying to justify WEG changing Star Wars for their own reasons: because rules, balances and other factors would've made it too difficult to stay faithful to the original material. |
You are saying that anyone playing the WEG game as written is not playing Star Wars. I said that seems an odd position to take given that the license holder (Lucas or one of his companies) has never claimed that WEG violated their license agreement in creating the game or failed to produce a game that could be called Star Wars. And it would seem like George Lucas is in a better position than crmcneil to determine if a game is insufficiently Star Wars. But you seem to think you know better than the creator of Star Wars what counts as playing Star Wars. I find that funny and kind of silly, especially given your reverence for canon.
| Quote: | | See, at this point, it seems you are just making random accusations without actually reading my posts. |
Perhaps you should reread your own posts. I’ve quoted the one above where you claim playing WEG isn’t playing Star Wars. I don’t really need to reread the canon gospel according to crmcneil other than to note the self-contradiction inherent in your point of view.
| Quote: | | Therefore, if the films say that Jedi are allowed to use Force Choke to some degree… |
The films show Jedi are able to use Force Choke. They also show Jedi are able to strike another down in anger. Please provide a quotation from the films where it states that Jedi are allowed or encouraged to use Force Choke. The ability to do something does not make the action moral or right. You appear to be confusing ability with moral rightness.
| Quote: | | Now, as I have stated repeatedly and you seem incapable of comprehending is that I am not trying to force anyone to play my way just because I say so. All I have been doing is pointing out an inconsistency between official sources and clarifying what is official and what is not. |
My inability to comprehend your point is due to the self contradictory nature of what you are claiming. To whit: that a game approved and licensed by Lucas and his companies is somehow not Star Wars. And anyone playing it is not playing Star Wars. Really it doesn’t get much sillier than that.
I will be traveling for the next while and may therefore miss crmcneil's next installment of - I'm playing Star Wars and you aren't! |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey, hey, hey!
This is getting a bit tiresome you know... 
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My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Matthias777
Commodore
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1835
Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Tiresome isn't the word for it. I feel as though on page ten of this "discussion" (and I use the term loosely), someone will actually go get a ruler and measure themselves, then post the results. The belittling of one another, the condescension, the twisting of another poster's words into something he clearly didn't mean, the intentional instigation, and general quarrelsomeness is beneath the denizens of this forum. Debate with class and consideration. Don't just log on and argue for the sake of arguing. There is a huge difference between a debate and an argument, and we crossed that line and continued traveling right into "pissing match" territory.
Last night, I showed this thread to a buddy of mine (who is also a huge Star Wars fan and an occasional player of D6), and his response was "Based on that thread...that doesn't seem like a forum I'd be interested in registering for. I award them all Dark Side Points."
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16204
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | You are saying that anyone playing the WEG game as written is not playing Star Wars. |
Whatever, you attack twit. What I said was that it is official Lucasfilm policy that anything that contradicts the films is not officially Star Wars. You are so obsessed with arguing with me that you never seemed to notice that that quote originated with Matthias777 but you haven't said a word to him about it. How many times do I have to say "game however you want" for you to get it through your thick skull that I mean it?
| Quote: | | I find that funny and kind of silly, especially given your reverence for canon. |
As I have said repeatedly, it is official Lucasfilm policy, reenforced by multiple statements in various media outlets. George and Lucasfilm have made their stance on official vs. unofficial very clear, and their official position is that anything that contradicts the films is unofficial. Take it up with them, not me; I'm sure they will give your complaint all the attention it deserves.
| Quote: | | The ability to do something does not make the action moral or right. You appear to be confusing ability with moral rightness. |
And you seem insistent on imposing WEG's definition of moral rightness on the films. Aside from the fact that you either havent been reading other people' posts for the last nine pages or you are just too lazy to be bothered to remember the details, the burden of proof isn't on my side, it's on yours. In a dispute between primary and secondary sources, the onus of proof is on the secondary source. In the films, the ethical distinction between good and evil is distinctly and simply defined, and Force Choke is shown as ethically neutral, in that it is acceptable practice for both good and evil characters. For the secondary source (WEG) to redefine a neutral act as purely evil (and thereby redefine ethical boundaries for the entire primary source), they must show proof that the act in question was wholly evil, not simply make an arbitrary ruling for their own reasons. Now, seeing as you are serving as WEG's self-appointed apologist-in-chief these days, where is the proof? You prove to us that Luke was acting on evil in the opening scenes of ROTJ. And variations on a theme of "because WEG said so" dont count.
| Quote: | | I will be traveling for the next while and may therefore miss crmcneil's next installment of - I'm playing Star Wars and you aren't! |
Good. Perhaps some fresh air will clear your head and you'll stop making baseless accusations, and maybe clear up your delusional issues too. Cutting back on the Kool-Aid could be helpful as well.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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It's probably time that we take a break from posting in here for about 48 hours. I don't say this in any official capacity, and we know that this forum can operate without official moderators, but we need cool heads to do this. We've gone from visceral posts to actual name calling, and that's not cool.
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Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14056
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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It does sound like its getting rather heated here.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16204
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'll leave it alone for now, but the point still stands.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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