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Danger Sense (Improved)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
This got me thinking. I have read somewhere that the reason for all these Jedi not being able to pick up on such a major threat as Order 66, was because there was no hostility or ill intent from the Clone Troopers. They were just following orders in a 'neutral' kind of fashion. This really argues for the idea of picking up intent and hostile feelings as the basis for Danger Sense. Characters who remain more or less neutral and calm about their actions would be harder to pick up on the Danger Sense radar. Cant really place where I read it though...


Now that you mention it, that was from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. Good point. For the description of Danger Sense, I had to go to the Force Sense page on Wookiepedia, and it describes Danger Sense as a tingling sensation that presaged the imminent danger, and that that sensation would flare right as the danger was about to occur.

Wookiepedia states that Danger Sense would not reveal of the source of the danger, but I don't think that's correct. After all, in E1, Qui-gon specifically describes the ability to see things before they happen, giving the appearance of extremely quick reflexes, as an obvious Jedi trait.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
This got me thinking. I have read somewhere that the reason for all these Jedis not being able to pick up on such a major threat as Order 66, was becuase there was no hostility or ill intent from the Clone Troopers. They were just following orders in a 'neutral' kind of fashion. This really argues for the idea of picking up intent and hostile feelings as the basis for Danger Sense. Characters who remain more or less neutral and calm about their actions would be harder to pick up on the Daner Sense radar. Cant really place where I read it though...


So then, would a trooper who is told "Guard this entrance way from that hidden spot. Any enemy who approaches snipe before they even pass the ravine" would be harder to detect than that mugger say just wanting your wallet??
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So then, would a trooper who is told "Guard this entrance way from that hidden spot. Any enemy who approaches snipe before they even pass the ravine" would be harder to detect than that mugger say just wanting your wallet??


That sort of ambiguity is why I wanted to make this strictly precognitive, rather than a mix of precognitive and telepathy.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
This got me thinking. I have read somewhere that the reason for all these Jedis not being able to pick up on such a major threat as Order 66, was becuase there was no hostility or ill intent from the Clone Troopers. They were just following orders in a 'neutral' kind of fashion. This really argues for the idea of picking up intent and hostile feelings as the basis for Danger Sense. Characters who remain more or less neutral and calm about their actions would be harder to pick up on the Daner Sense radar. Cant really place where I read it though...


So then, would a trooper who is told "Guard this entrance way from that hidden spot. Any enemy who approaches snipe before they even pass the ravine" would be harder to detect than that mugger say just wanting your wallet??


Well, if said 'mugger' would have as modus operandi to cut your throat before he took your wallet yes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Danger Sense (Improved) Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Thoughts?

This discussion has been interesting.

I like the idea of three levels for danger sense: Reaction Sense (Easy),
Identify Danger (Moderate), and Counteract Danger (Difficult). This seems useful as a way to allow Jedi to know there is danger (successful Reaction Sense), but not necessarily be immune to amubush or surprise attack (failure to Identify Danger). Dramatically this is interesting since the GM (or the dice) may adjust the amount of information the Jedi gets in a given situation.

We tend to allow the Jedi a free round in reaction to a danger rather than trying to force the rest of the world to declare actions a round ahead (as the rules suggest). I can probably make this consistent with sensing possible future dangers since the possible futures would become most strongly sensed and easiest to identify when the time to actual event is very short.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danger Sense(Re-edit)

Author's Note: This is an expansion of the Danger Sense RAW to reflect the official ability of Force users to detect threats more than one round in advance.

Sense Difficulty: Varies by Threat Level (see below)

Detect Danger - Very Easy (Allows a Jedi to sense impending danger automatically. Any potential threat registers, so long as the Jedi succeeds on his Sense roll. In game terms, this is treated like a reaction roll, and success means that the Jedi becomes aware of impending danger without conscious choice. On a successful roll, the Jedi simply becomes aware of a danger in his immediate future, nothing more. In game terms, on success, the player gets an initiative roll at -1D against surprise attacks, and is +1D to initiative against normal attacks).

Identify Danger - Very Difficult, and can only be attempted after a successful Detect Danger roll (Once the Jedi is aware of the danger, he may begin to probe his immediate future to seek out its source. A success on this roll identifies the source of the danger, such as a person waiting in ambush, or a series of trip-wire activated automatic weapons. In game terms, on a successful Identify Danger roll, the Jedi is aware of the attack before it occurs and does not need to roll initiative).

Threat Level:

+0 - Direct threats to the Jedi
+5 - General threat to the Jedi (Jedi on Ship’s Bridge: "The bridge is going to be attacked!")
+10 – Indirect threat (Jedi on Ship’s Bridge: "The ship’s engines are about to be attacked!")
+15 and up – Political, or very vague, non-direct attacks. ("It’s not about the mission, Master. It’s something…elsewhere…elusive")

Notes:

When facing a Force-using opponent, Difficulty is as normal plus the opponent’s Control Dice roll.

Danger Sense can be used to sense danger to others, modified by relationship.

When in doubt, Danger Sense always activates soon enough to give the Jedi a chance to avert the danger, but they must make a successful Identify Danger roll to be able to act. Naturally, there may be exceptions for special circumstances (GM's discretion)

This power can be kept "up" with reservations. Detect Danger is always up (subject to a successful roll), but Identify Danger must be re-rolled for every threat.

Effect:
Danger Sense allows a Jedi a minor glimpse into the future, specifically detecting any potential dangers the Jedi may encounter in his immediate future. This power functions like an early warning system, allowing the Jedi to detect any attacks before they are made. This gives the Jedi time to decide how to react to the danger. In game terms, if any character is going to attack a Jedi, they must declare their action before it happens. Characters who are going to attack the Jedi may add their Control skill to increase the difficulty of using the power.

Optional Rule:
For unknown reasons, organic threats tend to resonate more strongly in the Force than other kinds of threats. As such, detecting and identifying inorganic threats, such as droids or remote detonated bombs, incur a +5 difficulty modifier.


Ok, that looks good to me. I trimmed down as much of the numbers gobbledygook as I could and included an optional rule to factor in the argument for a combination of precognition and telepathy, without settling on a specific reason why.

Thoughts?
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:14 am; edited 3 times in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shooting stormtroopers - 300 credits
Marrying the princess - 40000 credits
Being stuck on a backwater planet with no chance to get off, when the sun is going nova - priceless.
For everything else there is Jedicard. Rolling Eyes
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Shooting stormtroopers - 300 credits
Marrying the princess - 40000 credits
Being stuck on a backwater planet with no chance to get off, when the sun is going nova - priceless.
For everything else there is Jedicard. Rolling Eyes


For those of you who are scratching your heads over this one, I screwed up. I went to post my revised rules for Danger Sense, and somewhere along the way, I hit the wrong button and wiped out the message to which garhkal was replying. In that message, I made some remark to the effect that there was the potential for unique and highly unlikely situations that Danger Sense might be capable of identifying, but leave the Jedi unable to do anything about it. I then referenced a specific example of a character being stuck on a backwater planet with no ship and the sun is about to go nova.

Now that that's cleared up, please scroll up and check out my Danger Sense re-revision. This version should be more balanced, in that it gives the Jedi some advantages for detecting the danger, but makes it much more difficult to actually identify the danger. It also leaves open some loopholes for overloading the Jedi's senses (by using multiple sequential attackers, the Jedi would have to re-roll Identify Danger for every attacker), and for attacking them via inorganic methods, such as droids or remote explosives, or something more ingenious like the Cavrilhu Pirates' Jedi trap (see Specter of the Past by Timothy Zahn).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="crmcneill"]
Detect Danger - Very Easy (Allows a Jedi to sense impending danger automatically. Any potential threat registers, so long as the Jedi succeeds on his Sense roll. In game terms, this is treated like a reaction roll, and success means that the Jedi becomes aware of impending danger without conscious choice. On a successful roll, the Jedi simply becomes aware of a danger in his immediate future, nothing more. In game terms, on success, the player gets an initiative roll at -1D against surprise attacks, and is +1D to initiative against normal attacks).
Quote:


Wouldn't the -1d init penalize the jedi against surprise attacks?
And if he was already iin combat (for the normal attack to apply) why would he have danger sense up?

[quote="crmcneill"]
Identify Danger - Very Difficult, and can only be attempted after a successful Detect Danger roll (Once the Jedi is aware of the danger, he may begin to probe his immediate future to seek out its source. A success on this roll identifies the source of the danger, such as a person waiting in ambush, or a series of trip-wire activated automatic weapons. In game terms, on a successful Identify Danger roll, the Jedi is aware of the attack before it occurs and does not need to roll initiative).

Threat Level:

+0 - Direct threats to the Jedi
+5 - General threat to the Jedi (Jedi on Ship’s Bridge: "The bridge is going to be attacked!")
+10 – Indirect threat (Jedi on Ship’s Bridge: "The ship’s engines are about to be attacked!")
+15 and up – Political, or very vague, non-direct attacks. ("It’s not about the mission, Master. It’s something…elsewhere…elusive")


Would ths detect non lethal traps (EG a merrson antipersonnel stun mine? A net trap? An enemy with a gloop grenade?
What of someone targeting his lightsaber (not him)?


crmcneill wrote:

Notes:

When facing a Force-using opponent, Difficulty is as normal plus the opponent’s Control Dice roll.

Danger Sense can be used to sense danger to others, modified by relationship.


Wouldn't proximity also be a factor? And normally with force powers there is one for you, and one for using it on somone else (accel healing, accel others healing).. Why combine these into 1?


[quote="crmcneill"]
When in doubt, Danger Sense always activates soon enough to give the Jedi a chance to avert the danger, but they must make a successful Identify Danger roll to be able to act. Naturally, there may be exceptions for special circumstances (GM's discretion)

Is the player calling for this roll? the gm?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wouldn't the -1d init penalize the jedi against surprise attacks?
And if he was already iin combat (for the normal attack to apply) why would he have danger sense up?


Well, the idea here is that, at the reaction skill level, the Jedi is only aware that there is a danger, nothing more. It means he doesn't know the source of the danger until he succeeds on the subsequent Identify Danger roll. If he doesn't succeed on that roll, then all that he knows is that he is in danger from an unknown source. That means his guard is up, but not focused on a specific source. In game terms, that means an ambush actually has a chance of succeeding, even though the Jedi is aware that there is something wrong. Normally, a surprised character wouldn't even get an initiative roll or an action that round, but since the Jedi is aware that there is some sort of threat, I decided to give him a penalized initiative roll against surprise attacks and a bonus to initiative against normal attacks. The normal Danger Sense bonus doesn't kick in until the Jedi succeeds on the Identify Danger roll.

garhkal wrote:
Would ths detect non lethal traps (EG a merrson antipersonnel stun mine? A net trap? An enemy with a gloop grenade?
What of someone targeting his lightsaber (not him)?


I would say yes. I don't recall a distinction in the canon between lethal and non-lethal threat, and targeting the Jedi's lightsaber would still qualify as a direct threat. However, there are things that Danger Sense wouldn't detect. In Specter of the Past, Shada disabled a Noghri and broke into the Organa-Solo's apartment on Coruscant. Leia was present and her Danger Sense never went off because Shada didn't intend to harm anyone.


garhkal wrote:
Wouldn't proximity also be a factor? And normally with force powers there is one for you, and one for using it on somone else (accel healing, accel others healing).. Why combine these into 1?


Possibly, but again, I was trying to make this less complicated. The reason for there being two powers on others is because those powers are all Control based, as in the original powers are powers you can use only on yourself. Introducing the ability to use those powers on others required an Alter roll, so you needed a new power, with the Control ability as a prerequisite. In this case, there is only one Sense category, and you aren't altering anything.

garhkal wrote:
Is the player calling for this roll? the gm?


This would be something the GM would be keeping track of.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, now this is too much reading to me, and I cant really follow the changes that are done in each post.

My major point here is that whatever mechanics, difficulties and rules you use, you should roll the Sense check at the time when danger presents itself... The Jedi shouldnt know in advance that I automatically will identify the source of danger and the best way to counter it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
My major point here is that whatever mechanics, difficulties and rules you use, you should roll the Sense check at the time when danger presents itself... The Jedi shouldnt know in advance that I automatically will identify the source of danger and the best way to counter it.


Correct, but I'm dropping the idea of knowing the best way to counter it. The Jedi still has to succeed on his Identify Danger roll to know the source of the danger. The classic Danger Sense rule of the FS character always having initiative doesn't kick in until he succeeds in identifying the threat. Until then, he just has some advantages on initiative.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
This would be something the GM would be keeping track of.


I have an issue on that.. It almost seems as if changing DS into an active power that the character controls, you are trying to make into a plot power the GM controls.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I have an issue on that.. It almost seems as if changing DS into an active power that the character controls, you are trying to make into a plot power the GM controls.


On the first version of the power, I would agree. On this version, it feels very similar to a GM rolling a surprise attack, as in he tells everyone to roll Perception (or whatever) without telling them why as he rolls dice behind the GM screen. With this power, that roll would simply be happening a round or two earlier, and unlike Danger Sense, there would be a chance that he wouldn't get an automatic win on initiative, even though he would be more forewarned than most.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What i am not understanding though is, if he is getting to act 1 round PRIOR to the 'ambusher', how is initiative even a concern?
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