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How well known was Darth Vader?
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since my campaign is set about 6 years after ROTJ I'd like to know how many people besides Luke and Leia know about the Anakin - Vader thing and the whole Chosen One prophesy.

As far as I know it is only the reborn Jedi (and only Luke, Leia and Jedi Knights) & perhaps the top dogs of the New Republic.

but what are your oppinions on this subject?
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vong
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Since my campaign is set about 6 years after ROTJ I'd like to know how many people besides Luke and Leia know about the Anakin - Vader thing and the whole Chosen One prophesy.

As far as I know it is only the reborn Jedi (and only Luke, Leia and Jedi Knights) & perhaps the top dogs of the New Republic.

but what are your oppinions on this subject?

Well, the Noghri know, and I believe that many others know later on (non jedi even), but 6 years after ROTJ im not sure who knows at that point.

But I also dont thing that Leia was a jedi knight at that point yet. she choose to do politics instead.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC it was not until the Jedi Academy trilogy that luke told more than just his kin about the vader/anakin skywalker link. Also iirc it was a point of discontention later on when luke wanted Kyp to take the sun crusher to the maw cluster to be finally destroyed...
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scott2978
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I can tell, during the GCW the only people who knew Anakin was Vader are the emperor, vader (of course), Obi-Wan and Yoda. Bail Organa had his suspicions before he was killed and several others are written of as "having a feeling that vader used to be a jedi" and are suspicious about the death of Anakin at the Jedi temple. I don't think it's a far strech for a regular citizen to have his own personal conspiracy theory that vader is anakin either, as we have plenty of conspiracy theorists today that think similar things.

Once the emperor, obi wan, yoda and vader are dead, that leaves only luke and possibly leia. I never read all the hokey post GCW novels besides the Thrawn trilogy, so I don't know what's (semi) official beyond that point.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link to Anakin was not widely known. I'm just finally reading I, Jedi now, and when Luke reveals the fact that Vader was his father and Anakin to his new students it was a big leap of trust and a surprise.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conspiracy nuts abound, and probably have all kinds of ideas.

Some conspiracy nuts might think it's General Kenobi that's Vader.

Or even Yodi, suffering from Short Sentient Syndrome!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orgaloth wrote:
Also in Wedges Gamble, they visit the museum and there's a big display on the battle of Endor which is narrated by Vader.

That's odd. Vader didn't survive the Battle of Endor!

vong wrote:
Kilgore wrote:
Since my campaign is set about 6 years after ROTJ I'd like to know how many people besides Luke and Leia know about the Anakin - Vader thing and the whole Chosen One prophesy.

As far as I know it is only the reborn Jedi (and only Luke, Leia and Jedi Knights) & perhaps the top dogs of the New Republic.

Well, the Noghri know, and I believe that many others know later on (non jedi even), but 6 years after ROTJ im not sure who knows at that point.
garhkal wrote:
IIRC it was not until the Jedi Academy trilogy that luke told more than just his kin about the vader/anakin skywalker link. Also iirc it was a point of discontention later on when luke wanted Kyp to take the sun crusher to the maw cluster to be finally destroyed...
Ankhanu wrote:
The link to Anakin was not widely known. I'm just finally reading I, Jedi now, and when Luke reveals the fact that Vader was his father and Anakin to his new students it was a big leap of trust and a surprise.

As far as the EU's post-RotJ period goes, the entire Noghri species knew Leia was the daughter of Vader 5 years after RotJ. (IIRC they called her "Lady Vader".) I know the entire species had pledged loyalty to Vader, but Vader didn't even know about having a daughter until right before he died. Were the Noghri lurking in the shadows in the Emperor's throne room? (Zahn put Mara Sue Jade in Jabba's palace when Luke was there, so I'm just saying.)

As far as the Prophecy of the Chosen One, did Luke even know about that? Maybe the Jedi Force Ghosts told him about it, or maybe Luke came across it on his own after or even before RotJ, but I'm sure Obi-Wan or Yoda wouldn't have mentioned it to Luke in specific terms before their deaths. After Anakin had turned to the Dark Side, the two Jedi Masters no longer thought it was Anakin. In my mind, Obi-Wan thought the Chosen One was Luke ("That boy is our last hope."), while Yoda thought it could be Luke or Leia (No, there is another"). But they wouldn't have told Luke about the Prophecy. "Not ready for the burden were you."
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott2978 wrote:
As far as I can tell, during the GCW the only people who knew Anakin was Vader are the emperor, vader (of course), Obi-Wan and Yoda. Bail Organa had his suspicions before he was killed and several others are written of as "having a feeling that vader used to be a jedi" and are suspicious about the death of Anakin at the Jedi temple. I don't think it's a far strech for a regular citizen to have his own personal conspiracy theory that vader is anakin either, as we have plenty of conspiracy theorists today that think similar things.

Once the emperor, obi wan, yoda and vader are dead, that leaves only luke and possibly leia.

Quote:
BAIL ORGANA, YODA, and OBI-WAN sit around a conference table.

YODA: Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

OBI-WAN: We must take them somewhere the Sith will not sense their presence.

YODA: Split up, they should be.

BAIL: My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked of adopting a baby girl. She will be loved.

OBI-WAN: And what of the boy?

YODA: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.

OBI-WAN: I will take the child and watch over him.

YODA: Until the time is right, disappear we will.

BAIL leaves the conference room.

Bail Organa had rescued Yoda from his failure to assassinate Palpatine at the Senate building. My take? Bail was in on pretty much everything that Yoda and Obi-Wan learned in Revenge of the Sith. Bail knew Anakin had become Vader. Bail knew Vader and Palpatine were both Sith Lords. Yoda wouldn't let Bail take one of the twins without knowing. I liked Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader so that novel is pretty much canon for me. Bail was surprised to find out that Vader had survived Mustafar (as was Obi-Wan when he later found out on Tatooine) but Bail knew who Vader was. When Vader came to Alderaan, Bail desperately kept baby Leia and the droids away from Vader while playing it cool and not giving any hint that he knew who was under that mask. Obsessed with keeping Leia safe, Bail didn't even tell Mon Mothma who Vader or Leia really were. Bail may not have told his wife. Bail may not have known any details about Anakin's step-family on Tatooine, but he knew that the Leia's brother was named Luke and that Obi-Wan was there watching over him.

scott2978 wrote:
So, Darth Vader... known throughout the galaxy? Known only to those in certain circles? Icon of terror or military/politcal leader?

If people know of him, are opinions different between the coreward worlds and the outer ones?

Does the average citizen in the core know of Darth Vader? Does he know him as "Darth" or some other title? Does he know who Vader is, or has he just heard of him? Has he heard of Vader at all?

And the average Rebel, how much do they know about Vader?

The average Imperial?

Quote:
Leia: Darth Vader! Only you could be so bold.

While those who wanted to show Vader respect called him Lord Vader to his face, the name Darth Vader was definitely known outside the Imperial military. If Leia had special knowledge of a rarely known fact, she certainly wouldn't have blurted it out to his face because that would have raised the question of how she knew that. The Emperor was not publicly not known to be Sith Lord or Force user, but Vader could have been known to be a Sith, whatever that is to your average citizen. The old Sith order that had been believed by the galaxy to have been extinct for a millennium may not have been common public knowledge in the Empire, but the Empire couldn't have eliminated all references to the Sith on all planets, so it certainly couldn't have been a secret that Darth was a Sith title. I think to maintain an aura of mystery around Darth Vader the Empire would just let people wonder and fear him.

They may have been rumors and speculation of Lord Vader being a noble and a former apprentice of Count Dooku before switching loyalties to Palpatine. Maybe Vader had learned of Count Dooku's collusion with the Jedi order in manufacturing the Clone Wars conflict to take over the Republic and came to Palpatine's aid by foiling the Jedi assassination attempt on Palpatine's life? Perhaps it was Vader who then lead the clone unit in the assault on the Jedi Temple? Inside the Jedi Temple, maybe Darth Vader killed the traitorous Anakin Skywalker? All true, from a certain point of view.

Vader is not just the Emperor's goon. By ANH Vader is giving orders to star destroyer captains and threatening higher-ranking officers in front of their commander Grand Moff Tarkin, so it is obvious Vader has a high level of authority in the Empire, at least admiral level. For that reason, I feel Vader would be largely known throughout the Empire, inner and outer regions both, although the legend of Vader would be larger then life. Tarkin having command of the Death Star and ordering Vader around must mean that Tarkin was Palpatine's second-in-command of the Empire, so after Tarkin's death it seems evident in the sequels that Vader is elevated to that position.

In light of Vader later being established as specifically Anakin Skywalker (and not just some former Jedi named Vader), it is evident in ANH dialogue that Tarkin would have been aware of Vader's true identity, whether he was told that by Palpatine or divined it on his own and revealed his knowledge of that secret to Vader sometime before the film takes place. ("The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.") Whenever Tarkin learned the secret, I think he had known for a long time before ANH.

And for some reason I like to think that Artoo knew Vader was Anakin. There is no film evidence of that and I don't really have any good reason why he should know. I just think it would be cool if he knew and just never mentioned it. It makes sense to memory-wipe the blabbermouth Threepio, but maybe Artoo can keep a secret and does.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going pretty much just by the movies... Leia knew who he was to be sure (as a political/military figure anyway) which pretty much says that the entire rebellion hierarchy is fairly familiar with him to the same extent. But at the time of ANH he's working UNDER Tarkin who is "holding his leash". Obviously, the emperor could make him second in command of the whole empire, being his Sith master - but DIDN'T. I'd suggest that he's not much more renowned than most other generals/admirals in the spearhead of the empire's fight against the rebels. UNTIL Yavin.

He was seen by Luke and Leia to have killed Kenobi. He seems to have been moved up in the Imperial hierarchy to fill in after Tarkin's death and the destruction of the Death Star to personally lead the effort to KILL THE REBELLION. I never got the impression that the portion of rebels at Hoth were even a substantial portion - it just happened to be the portion that Han, Luke, and Leia were wildcatting around with.

But Vader was by that time pretty much finally the #2 man in the Empire. At that point it would be very much in the propaganda interests of the rebels to let the whole galaxy know about him if they hadn't already - and fear and despise him enough to join in opposing him. He's too good a propaganda tool - for BOTH sides - for anyone in the galaxy to NOT know who he is.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve been thinking about this. I’d say no one (except Obi Won) knows he is what is left of Anikian.

However, the leadership of the rebellion knows a lot about him. Even putting 2 & 2 together on him being sith. They would have studied military history and the previous wars from the early republic. So, would know what a sith is and can do & know the title of Darth and what it means.

This would filter down to the common soldier, to a point. They would know that if he is in the area or rumored to be around, things are going to go very badly.

The flip side is the Empire. The military leadership will know he is close to the Emperor, so should be feared, respected, avoided. However, power breads contempt, so some that are gaining/striving for political power will do their best to undermine him – and then pay the price for it as in the scene from ANH.

Will they know him as sith or what it means …. Some maybe, most not. Unlike the rebellion, I’d argue the military history would miss or gloss over some of the finer points of the old wars. Look what Stalin did when he got power. Erased the complete existence of people that were his peers and some even supporters of his. Even editing them out of pictures …. So, I can see the Emperor selectively editing history and limiting the history taught even in war colleges etc etc etc. I’d take it a step further and say Vader to enhance the mystery/fear surrounding him would encourage this editing. People fear most what they don’t know soooooo how better to make other political rivals fear (or underestimate) you than keep them unaware about your true power significance etc etc etc.

Now, for the common populous … on both sides of the war. It will depend on how involved they are with politics &/or the war. As such the rebel citizen may be slightly more apt to know ‘of’ him. But that will be very limited knowledge. For the imperial citizen, very few will know or care to know. (Look at our world, how few people know what ISIS truly is, What the difference between ISIS ISAL Al-Qaida, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, etc is) With that outlook, I’s say the average citizen of the empire, if they bothered to watch news about the military or war – or are directly or secondarily tied – to the war – may have seen pictures of him behind the emperor or inspecting a legion of troopers. Most others … Darth who ? …. Who cares ….
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurker wrote:
I’ve been thinking about this. I’d say no one (except Obi Won) knows he is what is left of Anikian.

However, the leadership of the rebellion knows a lot about him. Even putting 2 & 2 together on him being sith. They would have studied military history and the previous wars from the early republic. So, would know what a sith is and can do & know the title of Darth and what it means.

This would filter down to the common soldier, to a point. They would know that if he is in the area or rumored to be around, things are going to go very badly.

The flip side is the Empire. The military leadership will know he is close to the Emperor, so should be feared, respected, avoided. However, power breads contempt, so some that are gaining/striving for political power will do their best to undermine him – and then pay the price for it as in the scene from ANH.

Will they know him as sith or what it means …. Some maybe, most not. Unlike the rebellion, I’d argue the military history would miss or gloss over some of the finer points of the old wars. Look what Stalin did when he got power. Erased the complete existence of people that were his peers and some even supporters of his. Even editing them out of pictures …. So, I can see the Emperor selectively editing history and limiting the history taught even in war colleges etc etc etc. I’d take it a step further and say Vader to enhance the mystery/fear surrounding him would encourage this editing. People fear most what they don’t know soooooo how better to make other political rivals fear (or underestimate) you than keep them unaware about your true power significance etc etc etc.

Now, for the common populous … on both sides of the war. It will depend on how involved they are with politics &/or the war. As such the rebel citizen may be slightly more apt to know ‘of’ him. But that will be very limited knowledge. For the imperial citizen, very few will know or care to know. (Look at our world, how few people know what ISIS truly is, What the difference between ISIS ISAL Al-Qaida, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, etc is) With that outlook, I’s say the average citizen of the empire, if they bothered to watch news about the military or war – or are directly or secondarily tied – to the war – may have seen pictures of him behind the emperor or inspecting a legion of troopers. Most others … Darth who ? …. Who cares ….

Most of that makes a lot of sense to me, but I do have a couple questions. Only Obi-Wan knew Vader's former identity as Anakin Skywalker?

In RotS, Yoda had watched the Jedi Temple security recording of Anakin communicating with Palpatine and being called Vader. In RotS, Obi-Wan had left Vader for dead on Mustafar but clearly found out he had survived by ANH. It is established in RotS that Yoda and later Obi-Wan both could communicate with Qui-Gon's ghost, and thus the two living masters could communicate with each other from different planets through Qui-Gon, so it is not hard to even see how Yoda could learn of Vader's survival (if not farseeing it himself).

In RotJ, when Yoda was on his death bed, he confirmed it for Luke. ("Your father he is.") It's clearly film canon that Yoda knew.

And what's your take on this? Tarkin's line to Vader in ANH - "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." You really think that Tarkin only knew that Vader had been a Jedi, but did not know which one after 19 years of working with him? I have too high of an opinion of Tarkin to think he wouldn't have been able to figure it out or find out over the years, but I'm still interested in hearing your ideas.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus at the end of Ep3, we saw vader standing on the bridge of a star destroyer looking at the starting of the death star.. Right next to tarkin!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
And what's your take on this? Tarkin's line to Vader in ANH - "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." You really think that Tarkin only knew that Vader had been a Jedi, but did not know which one after 19 years of working with him? I have too high of an opinion of Tarkin to think he wouldn't have been able to figure it out or find out over the years, but I'm still interested in hearing your ideas.

garhkal wrote:
Plus at the end of Ep3, we saw vader standing on the bridge of a star destroyer looking at the starting of the death star.. Right next to tarkin!

I like to think that Tarkin and Vader are Imperial compatriots who know each other well by ANH. Not that they are literally "friends" (villains like these don't have friends per se), but they have had to work together many times before. They are both very aware of the Emperor's power games and play them when needed. They are rivals to each other that likely have even plotted against each other in various subtle ways to to gain the Emperor's favor, but they have a grudging respect for each other. I feel this relationship is much more meaningful if Tarkin knows who Vader really is. But ANH is my favorite film so I like to see the more significance in the character of Tarkin than a lot of people probably do.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mea culpa, mea culpa .... What I should have said was "Obi Won was only one of a very select few" Embarassed

I completely agree that those you all pointed out would have known. I could even see a few more being in a position to know or to be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure it out. But even then say something like less than .... 10 people total

Whill, I agree with you on your view of Tarkin. & Vader. I would go so far to say they were actually friends. They each are probably the only friend the other could ever have. That said, I'm sure there were behind the scenes plots and maneuvering between them. But no animosity and hard wishes so to speak.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While i wouldn't go that far to say they were friends, i would at least say they mutually respected one another.
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