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Using character-scale weapons against vehicles
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Volar the Healer
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Joined: 04 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad I like die caps...

I still use 'em.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading the "New" D6 system, and the scale system for it.

Rather than a variable number, or die caps, it's a simpe, straight number based on size.

And, I have to say, I love it!!! Takes a *LOT* of guesswork out of things, and able to more actively protray things accurately.

No longer will Corvettes be, technically, just as tough as Bulk Cruisers.
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Gry Sarth
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Joined: 25 May 2004
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Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly prefer the Revised scale rules. I only played 2nd Edition for a little while, but that piece of system always felt weird to me. The problem is that it's a gimmick that's not used anywhere else in the rules. D6 rules are very simple: Roll a bunch of D6 dice, and maybe add or subtract some dice in some special circumstances, sometimes maybe add or subtract a specific number. But then suddenly to be considering anything higher than a 4 to be a 4, it just doesn't fit.

Grimace was complaining a while back about the obscene amount of dice rolled in some instances with the "new" rule, citing the 24D for Death Star scale. However that's just not real. First of all, when have any of you ever rolled for a Death Star scaled weapon? The 24D is just there for completeness sake, if a Death Star scaled weapon fires, the target is a gonner, simple as that. Plus you will never have an interaction of scales with more than 3 steps between them. Characters don't shoot Capital ships and don't get shot by them, nor do Death Stars aim at speeders. So the maximum amount of dice you're gonna add is 6D on the off-chance event of a character firing at a starfighter or some such event, and that's not so many dice. Usually adding up to 11D or something.

Oh, well... just felt like rumbling...
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Crell Damar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deathstar just blows it up... enough said.

I may consider putting in die caps... or coming up with hardness of certain objects (number of D subtracted from damage before soak is rolled.) Some sort of thing to keep a martial artist from completely kicking through a blast door... I have had it happen... he was dealing damage, slowly working it down... It's just terrible how some things can become so easily unbalanced.
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RedFox
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone's hitting a blast door with his bare hands to wear it down (cool image, BTW), then I'd have every Wild Die 1 result (and you know there'd be a few if he was so gradually wearing it down... 1-in-6 chance, after all) be dealing damage to himself as he bloodies his knuckles and cracks his bones.
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Gry Sarth
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Joined: 25 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there are some instances where the GM must throw the rules aside and just say what happens. If a character is trying to kick down a blast door, the GM should simply say "Kick it all you want, it won't budge. You might make a dent here or there, but your feet is getting quite bloody." Through game-mechanics there's a chance he really might destroy the thing with a kick, but that would be just plain absurd, unless he's some hulking monster.
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is, I've heard of game groups out there (not mine, BTW, as I use Die Caps) that actually play out some of the absurd, such as a Jedi with a lightsaber cutting through the hull of a capital ship, or the hull of the Death Star, and rolling all of the dice for it.

Even without the eccentricity of such things, compare the following, which could happen:

A walker scale vehicle contains a bad guy, and is trying to get away from PC group. Vehicle hull is 3D+2.

PC in group is a dude with a large vibrosword. Dude has 4D STR and vibrosword does STR+2D damage. Dude's skill with weapon is 5D+1

Dude decides he's going to charge the vehicle and attempt to slice through it to damage it so it can't get away. Knowing it's tough, the Dude burns a Force Point.

Dude rolls to hit.

Using Die Cap system, the Dude rolls 10D+2 (due to Force point) and suffers no penalties to hit. If vehicle tries to dodge, the Maneuver + Piloting is capped at 3. Since this is a sneak attack, bad guy doesn't try to dodge.

Using Bonus Dice system, the Dude rolls 14D+2 (due to Force Point and bonus for Walker scale size). If vehicle tries to dodge, it rolls Maneuver + Piloting as normal.

Dude hits and now inflicts damage.

Using Die Cap system, Dude rolls 10D damage (due to Force point doubling STR and then adding 2D for vibrosword). The total of each die is capped at 2, due to hitting a larger scale.

Using the Bonus Dice system, the Dude rolls 10D (due to Force Point doubling STR, and then adding 2D for vibrosword) but counts them normally.

Vehicle resists the damage.

Using the Die Cap system, vehicle rolls 3D+2 and counts them normally.

Using the Bonus Dice system, vehicle rolls 7D+2 and counts them normally.


Now, regardless of the rolls, the amount of dice is telling in my book.

Die Cap = 23D
Bonus Dice = 31D

This could be why some call D6 the "bucket o' dice" game.


Another example that I hear people complaining about:

Starfighter with 4D laser cannons is shooting at bad guy Capital ship with 3D+1 hull.

Using Die Cap system, the fighter rolls damage with 4D and caps them at 3. Assuming no additional dice from Wild Die, that's a max of 12 against the 3D+1 hull roll of the Cap ship (which is counted normally).

Using the Bonus Dice system, the fighter rolls damage with 4D and counts them as normal. The Cap ship rolls 5D+1 (regular hull +2D for scale bonus) and counts normally.

There's a big difference between the damage infliction capability in each scale system. Capped dice score lower and result in less damage to the bigger item. Bonus dice result in narrower dice amounts, and since both are counted normally, there's a greater chance of smaller weapon affecting a larger thing with more severe result. So if you're looking for smaller things damaging bigger things more regularly, then the Bonus Dice system is more along those lines.

If you're looking for less dice rolling (or, I should say, no ADDITONAL dice rolling) and a little better balance, IMO, on damage against bigger things, then Die Caps are the way to go.
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Crell Damar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do they have a system for the die capping? I may want to give it a shot in the game with the blast door kicking martial artist.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah....the Star Wars 2nd edition main book.

Mine is currently packed away, otherwise I'd post it.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.rancorpit.com/chartsTables2.shtml

There's the tables for it.

It's basic. When you're hitting a certain class of vechicle, your dice can only be "Counted" at a certain number.

Example: Captain Jack pulls out his BlasTech DL-6H Heavy Blaster Pistol, and shoots a Landspeeder that's speeding away after it's occupents fired at him and his party.

He rolls his 4D+2 Blaster skill, and gets a 4, 4, 2, and 2. His player (ME!) checks the Die Caps table, and sees that a Character shooting at a Speeder has a die caps of "6" (Meaning no modification), and adds everything to make 14.

The Speeder's driver, knowing that his group missed their targets, is trying to dodge away, and rolls his 3D Repulsorlift Operations, getting a 6, 1, and 2. The GM checks the chart himself, sees that the Die Caps for Dodging a Character Scale shot is "5", meaning that his 6 can only be counted as a 5. His total is then 8.

Captain Jack then rolls damage for his Heavy Blaster Pistol (5D), and gets a 6, 5, 2, 2, and a 2. Again with the die caps, this time, he sees that the damage caps are at a 3, meaning that his 5 and 6 can only be counted as 3s. His total is 9.

The Landspeeder's hull is 2D, and the GM rolls a piddly little 3 in total (He has no die caps to resist), for a difference of 6. That's lightly damaged.

Captain Jack rolls the die for Vechicle Damage, and gets a 5. That's "Vechicle Suffers -1 Move". The GM says that the shot hits one of the jet assist turbines, and starts smoking. Captain Jack smiles, and tells Crunch over his handsfree comlink to chase after the speeder in his swoop, and "Make 'em hurt real bad.".

Crunch gives chase to do what Crunch does best.
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Liquidsabre
Ensign
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray wrote:
I've been reading the "New" D6 system, and the scale system for it.

Rather than a variable number, or die caps, it's a simpe, straight number based on size.

And, I have to say, I love it!!! Takes a *LOT* of guesswork out of things, and able to more actively protray things accurately.

No longer will Corvettes be, technically, just as tough as Bulk Cruisers.


I've just borrowed the D6 Space book from a friend of mine and I have to say I like the scale system as well. Just adding a straight number based on the size difference sure beats rolling more dice anyday. Plus it does remove the high variability that can crop up when lots of dice are rolled.

So we'd see a landspeeder vs. a human with the landspeeder at -6 to their to-hit roll and a +6 to the damage roll. Like-wise the human would have a +6 to their to-hit roll but suffers a flat -6 to their damage roll. No extra dice, just the straight up modifier. Not sure if I'd use the exact same scale modifiers for D6 SW but developing your own modifiers for scale differences would definately be a good idea.

Btw I just found the Rancor Pit, nice place! I just started playing in a D6 SW game and wanted to learn more about the system, it's been a long time since I last played the original edition SWd6.
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Crell Damar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I see how the die caps work.
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RedFox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rathe Ehtar wrote:
That is correct B.

So if the Death Star shoots at the character, the character gets 24D added to his dodge, and the Death Star gets 24D added to damage. Not that the character has a chance to avoid his planet blowing up, but at least he wasn't hit directly. Smile


Going by the rules, I think you can dodge the planet blowing up because it's an explosion. Very Happy

Completely unrealistic, but this is kind of a rules-lite game. I'd just use GM fiat and say, "Hey, you're on the planet! Drat, that sucks. Spend a Force Point and maybe you've somehow survived at the last second."

...okay, I'm spoiled by Adventure!'s dramatic editing. Nothing to see here, move along.
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MA-3PO
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something interesting I just found with bonus die and starship shields...the bonus die are added to the hull and shields seperatly.

For example, against a starfighter scale proton torpedo (9D damage) a Star Destroyer would resist at 22D (7D hull + 6D capital-scale modifier + shields 3D + 6D capital-scale shields modifier).

I found this in errata listed in SWAJ #15 ISB Intercepts written by Eric S. Trautmann. He explains that unless a starfighter is really lucky or coordinates with his wingmates he has little chance of doing damage to a capital ship.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, though most everyone i play with only applies the scale diff for fighters against caps once, to it's hull.....
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