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Jerrod Owex
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Joined: 26 Apr 2013
Posts: 56
Location: Iowa, USA
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 Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
I do very much like the Prequels |
That takes a LOT of guts to admit, lol. But i liked them very much as well, and Jar Jar especially, lol.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | As far as playing a generic sci-fi or space opera, I don't think you have to pull everything from the SWU to make it 'Star Wars'. As long as the players are shooting at their enemies with blasters, flying around in beat-up frieghters, encounter Wookiees, and other bizarre species, interact with droids, and have to worry about Imperial Star Destroyers, they're living in and enjoying the world of SW. And that's just from one time frame. You don't really even need to have Jedi (and lightsabers), though that stuff greatly enhances the feel and allows for even more immersion in the environment. Personally, I think you could play within any timeline and it can still be Star Wars. As long as there's things like datapads, Twi'leks, ferocious creatures, chases, and a rousing John Williams score in the background, it will have the right feel, IMV. |
This is true but i dont know about not having Jedi, they don't have to be the players by any means but they are an integral part of Star Wars.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Finally got done reading all 14 pages (took chunks at a time, so it took me over a week!). |
I can't believe you took the time to read the "WHOLE" thing, lol. I might at some point but not any time soon, lol. I have a lot of work to do on "My Star Wars Campaign". It's like the marvel "What IF's" and I decided to look at what would have, or i should say could have, happened if Anakin does not kill Windu and turn to the darkside.
Here is a link to the thread: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4293 |
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Darth_Hilarious
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Somewhere over there --------->
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kilgore wrote: | The cloning of Force users.
The Katana fleet consisting of 200 hopelessly outdated ships compared to what we see in the PT.
A Grand Admiral that came out of nowhere who was almost superhuman in his ability to defeat almost any enemy through knowledge of their art.
Things (creatures) that are able to negate use of the Force.
Those are the things that spring to mind. |
Not to mention that Thrawn is a NON human in a decidedly xenophobic Empire |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14033
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well, we know the Emperor had no issues himself using aliens, just the imperial mighty military was anti alien. So its not a stretch to see him liking what he saw in Thrawn and recruiting him into the fold.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Whill wrote: | Thanks. I can't deny both the Dune and historical influences.
| Whill wrote: | | Palpatine hoped to discover a path to immortality that was accessible through the Dark Side of the Force so that he may have supreme power over the galaxy forever. I'm not saying that he ever found that power... |
| Grimace wrote: | And conveniently allows for Dark Empire with "Emperor Palpatine" (the IV) to play a role in it.  |
Ha ha, Dark Empire may be in your SWU, but not mine! |
well, if you use a lot of the stuff after the DE time frame, you have to acknowledge DE, since it set up what is in them... |
It seems this idea creeps in every so often and so we need a reminder about what this is all about.
I don't use a lot of EU continuity set after DE, but even if I did, No I don't "have to" acknowledge DE. The very spirit of this thread is that each GM (and Star Wars fan in general) can determine what what defines his personal Star Wars universe. Lucas himself was a strong proponent of this idea. Many here choose to ignore the entire prequel trilogy, and it takes place before the classic trilogy. Those of us that choose to accept pretty much the entire live-action film saga as part of our universe still have a further choice to accept none, parts, or all of the EU.
To me (and many others), the EU is a la cart. We take the parts we want and disregard the rest. We tie things together with our own continuity. I do accept some novels that take place before ROTJ as in my universe, but for me it is very siimple in the post-RotJ era: I personally disregard ALL stories set after RotJ (Yes, even the Thrawn Trilogy - Gasp!). Some of it is like the "Secondary" canon status retroactively applied some of the pre-1991 publishing: Some of the characters, ships, etc from post-RotJ stories may exist in my universe, but the stories themselves do not.
Also, if you take a close look at the EU itself, there is a severe discontinuity regarding DE anyway. Han refers to the the Imperial capital as the place "where the Emperor used to hang his hat." That's an odd thing to say if the Emperor had been dead for 6 years and Han himself used to live there more recently. The EU chronology leading up to DE just doesn't make any sense. According to the Thrawn Trilogy, the remnants of the Empire had been on a steady decline while the New Republic steadily grew. Then Thrawn returns from the outer regions to rally the Imperial forces and almost destroys the New Repulbic. But after the Empire's only real hope in five years is defeated, suddenly the Empire is powerful enough to take Coruscant back without the mastermind warlord??
DE was actually devised well before Zahn as a follow-up to the Marvel comic series and originally took place soon after the series (in the first year after RotJ). And in true comic book fashion, deceased villains were resurrected (i.e. the Emperor and Boba Fett). DE had been delayed for years and the comic license changed from Marvel to Dark Horse. When DE was finally becoming a reality, Zahn had been contracted for a novel trilogy that took place 3-5 years after RotJ (Zahn chose 5). Lucas concieved the modern EU and immediately directed publishing to reconsile the two very contrasting visions of the future of the Star Wars galaxy. Zahn was asked to incorporate references to DE into his novels but refused because DE contradicted his vision of the post-RotJ future. Zahn's contract allowed Lucas to dictate things that couldn't be done in the novels (i.e. Obi-Wan having been cloned, the "Sith" being a species that Vader had been the Dark Lord of, etc.), but on the other hand I guess Zahn could not be forced to put anything in his novels that he didn't want. So DE was moved to taking place after the Thrawn trilogy so DE could include references to Zahn, and a few changes were made to the comic's opening crawl.
So there you have it. The modern Star Wars Expanded Universe was hopelessly shattered at the very beginning by trying put these two conflicting works into the same universe. Lucas should have either declared DE a non-canon "what if" story, or even better just declared an Expanded Multiverse with these two products being the springboard for the first two universes of an official multiverse.
I pray that Disney-Lucasfilm will just press the reset button on the EU and do it right this time. Just start over fresh and this time really maintain continuity with the films and itself, unlike the chaotic mess that the SW EU has always been. I didn't mean to turn this into a rant about EU, but please don't tell me that DE is "required" continuity for what comes next when it conceptually pre-dates Zahn and the modern EU, and was just shoe-horned into taking place 6 years after it was originally designed to. DE doesn't set-up anything except DE II. The majority of the EU writers felt the same as Zahn about the DE comic series and tried to ignore its existence as much as possible.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Jerrod Owex wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: |
I do very much like the Prequels |
That takes a LOT of guts to admit, lol. But i liked them very much as well, and Jar Jar especially, lol. |
You're both awsome. A few years ago this forum wasn't much more than a classic man prequel hater club. I was part of an extremely small minority of SW fans here that didn't hate on the prequels, but over time most people seemed to mellow a bit on the hate. I hate to seem too immodest but I'd have to say that I had a part in prequel fandom becoming somewhat more respectd here. 8)
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Jerrod Owex wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: |
I do very much like the Prequels |
That takes a LOT of guts to admit, lol. But i liked them very much as well, and Jar Jar especially, lol. |
You're both awsome. A few years ago this forum wasn't much more than a classic man prequel hater club. I was part of an extremely small minority of SW fans here that didn't hate on the prequels, but over time most people seemed to mellow a bit on the hate. I hate to seem too immodest but I'd have to say that I had a part in prequel fandom becoming somewhat more respectd here. 8) |
Well I have not been here THAT long, but I'll admit that I like the prequels. However, still not a fan of Jar Jar
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2259
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for bearing the torch alone until a few more of us arrived, Whill! 
Besides, we can't be that alone, anyway. Ever notice that - at least according to Box Office Mojo - The Phantom Menace (probably the most reviled of the prequels) is the #5 movie of all-time (domestically!), and the highest grossing Star Wars film? 
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I blame everything on Jar Jar. Because of him (and maybe Emo Anakin) the PT receives such hard treatment.
Personally, I love the PT! They're all some damn fine Action Movies! Finally, when watching them fighting with the Lightsaber, it feels like "yeah, you need the superhuman abilities of a Jedi to properly wield them". Let's be honest here, the Lightsaber fights in the OT look extremely lame. Especially Luke always looks like he just swings that damn thing randomly in fron of him, hoping that he hits something. In the PT, they are coreographed extremely good and every fight is breathtaking.
The Story of the PT might be very weird at some times and the conclusions are questionable at best (Yoda: "I couldn't defeat the Sith, instead of doing something against him, I'm just gonna leave you all alone and life a relaxed life in exile"... what? oO). But hey, the OT has it's flaws storywise too. It is of course superior, but well, it's always a fact that the sequel (even if it's a prequel story wise) is not as good as the original. Sequals nearly always suffer in comparison to the original movie. But in this case, I have to say, I would rather see the PT then the OT, because it's so much more appealing to the eye (in terms of quality ans swordsmenship). Might be a sucker for special effects, but oh well. |
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Dromdarr_Alark
Commander
Joined: 07 Apr 2013
Posts: 426
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Confession time:
I like the prequels too.
I think what helped was all of the reading I did of the books that showed the strong relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. It really filled in the gaps.
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Darth_Hilarious
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2013
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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If you take fighting styles into effect, I bet Luke would have had his a$$ handed to him on a platter by a 3rd or 4th year padawan.
Lukes style looked like it was choreographed to resebmle Scottish Highlanders with Claymores. Anakins style was a more refined 14th century Rapier fencing style. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:12 am Post subject: |
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I have to preface this by saying that yes, Luke's lightsaber choreography was less than good. Understatement to the Nth degree, and we'll leave it like that.
Now, when I saw EPI I, and the WONDERFUL duel between Obi Wan and Darth Maul, my comment was, "NOW you have truly seen how Luke Skywalker became good enough to beat Darth Vader's @$$." Even though his time with Kenobi was very abbreviated, he learned a lot in that time. And then, of course, we got to see Yoda be that wonderfully twirling ball of Jedi Death in EPI II & III, which showed us the other half of how Luke got so good. Even though he spent a very short time with both of his teachers, he was undergoing very, VERY intense training. It's a testament to Kenobi's and Yoda's ability as teachers, to be able to confer that level of skill upon a student in such a short time.
And, just to step away from the suspension of disbelief for a moment, ALL fight scenes back then weren't choreographed very well. If we'd had our current level of technology, both fight scenes (ESB and RotJ) would have been some truly epic things. Although I love the original trilogy, I'd love for them to have been made with the same tech level as the prequels. So you almost can't really make the argument about Luke's skill, when what we saw in the movies was hampered by technological know-how. It's apples to oranges. |
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Quetzacotl
Commander
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 281
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
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This hasn't really to do with teodays level of technology. There were enough films back then were swordfights looked like the two people fighting actually know how to use that weapon that they have in their hand. Not so much with the OT. The worst thing is the Fight Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader. It just looks silly, they look like they don't really know what to do with their weapons.
I don't want them to jump around like crazy like Yoda did, or doing impossible like stunts as in the fight of anakin vs. obi-wan. But I would like it if it at least looked like they know anything about sword fighting and not just randomly swinging around those "sticks" that they have in their hands.
A good choreography could have been made even back then, without the use of any fancy technology we have today. The actors could have gotten some swordfighting lessons and someone could have made a choreography, which would mean that the actors wouldn't even need to know much about swordfighting, just basically knowing how to swing that stick in a way that it doesn't look clumsy or random.
Yes, Yosa and Kenobi were (supposed to be) some masters with the lightsaber and gave all their knowledge (more or less) to luke. But that doesn't show in the fight Luke vs. Darth Vader. It's still just randomly swinging around the stick in the hand. Just this time Darth Vader is supposed to be affected by that and seems to be weaker then when they fought on Bespin...
That alone would be worth a lot and would have made the movies so much better. They don't have to be on par with the prequels in that aspect, they can't because of the technological limitation, but even back then it could have been MUCH better. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | Thanks for bearing the torch alone until a few more of us arrived, Whill!
Besides, we can't be that alone, anyway. Ever notice that - at least according to Box Office Mojo - The Phantom Menace (probably the most reviled of the prequels) is the #5 movie of all-time (domestically!), and the highest grossing Star Wars film? |
| lurker wrote: | | I'll admit that I like the prequels. However, still not a fan of Jar Jar |
| Quetzacotl wrote: | Personally, I blame everything on Jar Jar. Because of him (and maybe Emo Anakin) the PT receives such hard treatment.
Personally, I love the PT! They're all some d*mn fine Action Movies! Finally, when watching them fighting with the Lightsaber, it feels like "yeah, you need the superhuman abilities of a Jedi to properly wield them". Let's be honest here, the Lightsaber fights in the OT look extremely lame. Especially Luke always looks like he just swings that d*mn thing randomly in fron of him, hoping that he hits something. In the PT, they are coreographed extremely good and every fight is breathtaking. |
| Dromdarr_Alark wrote: | Confession time:
I like the prequels too.
I think what helped was all of the reading I did of the books that showed the strong relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. It really filled in the gaps. |
Great to see you all chiming in!
I think a big part of the prequel hate common among first generation Star Wars fans comes out of the fact that Star Wars was defined by the classic trilogy, in our childhood.
As kids we didn't notice that Mark Hamil was a bad actor, so his performance was just an inherent part of Luke's personality. And we may have known that Yoda was a muppet, but he was far more realistic than Miss Piggy and Grover. The special effects were revolutionary, for the time. As time moved on after 1983, we grew older and Star Wars became nostalgia. We continued to see it through rose-colored lenses, placing it up on a pedestal.
Not only was the prequel trilogy first viewed by adult eyes, it came out a wopping 16 years later after many years of uncertainty whether it would ever be be made. Star Wars fans had plenty of time to imagine their own backstory, and the prequels ended up being a shocking contrast to 16 years of personal imagination for many. If the prequels had always been a certainty and started only 3 years after RotJ, the shock would have been much less because there would be a lot more anticipation of what could happen next instead of utter disappointment from the stark contrast to how they imagined it would/should be. These fans didn't imagine that a 10-year-old kid could ever be considered a "great pilot".
And I also blame the EU of the 90s. Many first generation fans enjoyed the EU and accepted the continuity blanks it filled in and expansions, so allowed that to continue to inform their view of the Star Wars universe. They were upset because Lucas dared to contradict it and placed film canon above publishing. How dare he make Jaster Mereel null and void?! Boba Fett can't be a clone! The Clone Wars didn't happen 35 years before the original film?! Many older Star Wars fans didn't understand that in Lucas' mind, cinema is an artform. The EU's only purpose has even been to make money. While the films are commercial products too, to Lucas they are also art, so therefore are inherently superior. They didn't get that while Lucas is a shrewed businessman, he sees publishing as only supporting the primary product/art. They had grown to love the EU almost as much as the classic films.
Many older fans were flat-out disgruntled that Lucas dared to re-release the classic movies with changes in 1997, as if Lucas really had a time-machine and had somehow altered their childhood experience of Star Wars. The Special Editions just left a bad-taste in their mouths so many fans were prejudiced against the prequels before they even saw them. And for many older fans looking through their rose-colored lenses, CG looks inherently less realistic than conventional effects. Muppets were good enough for the classic movies, so the cuttting-edge effects of the modern era were just considered unecessary.
I find Jar Jar's antics more amusing than the Ewoks (who I also accept). In TPM, Jar Jar fills the archetypal role of the Fool perfectly. In the Major Arcana of the Tarot deck, the Fool is the very first card and represents the beginning of a journey. In TPM he also fills in for Threepio as the resident scaredy-cat who runs from danger screaming with his arms in the air, a slightly more literal fish out of water. I bet that if Jar Jar could have appeared in the classic trilogy and had, a lot of the prequel haters would have been eating that stuff up as kids. But first seen as adults, Jar Jar is new and cornball, so no. I would have thought that the Jar Jar haters would have enjoyed the fact that he is largely resposible for Palpatine's rise to power in AotC, but no. The Empire is Jar Jar's fault, from a certain point of view.
It is lost on many Star Wars fans that Anakin being a kid in the first film and Jedi normally being separated from the parents before their life-long conscious memories are formed deal with the issues surrounding adoption, something very near and dear to Lucas who adopted three very young children himself. After extensive research, Lucas determined that a 9 or 10 year old child would be the right age to have the maximum amount of separation anxiety that could serve as a basis for eventually turning to the Dark Side. Yoda laid it out in TPM: Fear (of loss) leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. I'm not arguing for or against it here. I am just saying, I get what Lucas was going for. Not everyone does.
Honestly the kid Anakin didn't bother me. His accidental destruction of the trade federation mother ship is a perfect contast to his older son's later destruction of the Death Star. Luke, with a more developed ego, had to be told to let go of it, consciously choosing to sink back down into his unconscious to act on instinct. Luke had had more time in his life to learn, so had more to unlearn. Kid Anakin however having a less developed ego was more immersed in his unconscious so natually behaved more instinctually. And as Qui-Gon taught, there are no meaningless coincidences. And Jake Lloyd's performance was as good for kid Anakin as Hamil was for Luke in the first episodes of their respective trilogies.
Adult Anakin on the other hand were pretty bad performances. I actually blame Lucas' poor direction of actors. Lucas is a pure and utter genius when it comes to envisioning a world and scenes, and directing action sequences. Hayden Christiansen may really be a talented actor and Lucas may have actually saw something special in him that prompted him to be cast. But Lucas is just not a good director of human beings. "Let's do another take. And this time, faster and more intense." That's not to say that all prequel actor performances under Lucas were bad. Some actors were so great and rose above Lucas' bad direction - Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid were always excellent. But Hayden Christiansen, Natalie Portman and Samual L. Jackson were not that great. I think Lucas should have done the PT like the OT and handed Episodes II and III off to another director who worked better with the human element. It may not have helped AotC much as a whole, but it really could have perfected RotS. I'm hardcore into film score, and one constant in the Star Wars film saga is that John Williams is always awesome. Honestly, the emotion of the music helped "sell" several scenes for me, but that may not work on everyone.
When it's all said and done, the original Star Wars is still my favorite episode (any version). Still to this day, the Battle of Yavin is the single best climactic scene in cinematic history. I've seen the film well over 100 times, and just listening to the music for that scene alone gives me goosebumps and a lump in my throat. AotC is my least favorite episode, mainly because it is the least standalone of the fims (there to connect A to C). It has the weakest climax (Obi-Wan, then Anakin and then Yoda vs. Dooku in brief little sequential duels). But I actually enjoy TPM and RotS a little more overall than the two SW sequels for many of the reasons you guys have mentioned. And James Luceno's prequel era books tie directly into the films and enhanced my experience of the prequels.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 1:40 am Post subject: |
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I guess I, as always, am the exception to the rule.
I greatly enjoyed the prequels. Heck, I LOVE them. The reason for that is that I've always been completely fascinated by the Jedi, the Force, and anything to do with them. The Jedi were RAMPANT in the prequels, as they couldn't be in the original trilogy, and that spoke to me.
When I first saw "Heir to the Empire" in the bookstore, I remember where I was. I had just started AIT, during my Army training. I'd just come off of total control, and was allowed to leave post. I was at Ft. Lee, VA, and went to Richmond, went to the mall, and found this book that started the EU. I was hooked. And while some authors are obviously more skilled than others, overall I enjoyed the entire experience (except in Vector Prime...I read the part about Chewie's death at work. Everyone heard me scream out "b@st@rd*!!!" when I read that part, and I had a lot of explaining to do. But it was worth it).
The point is, everyone has their own opinions about the veracity and validity of the prequels and the EU. We like it, we don't like it, we like only parts of it. Personally, I'd always been under the impression that Lucas had final approval on all of them. Either I was mistaken, or he did, and just didn't give a rip that what was in the movies directly contradicted MANY things in the books.
Regardless, I LOVE Star Wars. I love the entire universe, and to this day enjoy reading novels and seeing movies in that setting. I don't see that changing. I just hope that my skeptical optimism about Disney buying the franchise doesn't go unrewarded. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2259
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think you hit the nail on the head for the most part, Whill, with your excellent analysis of the many factors for why the fanbase was so rabidly against the PT.
And I was going to post something very much like Quetz's last post (about the skill of swordplay not really being dependent on technology), but he beat me to it.
Perhaps over time many SW fans will become more accepting of the prequels. The hate - at least here - sure seems to have softened some over the years.
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