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What's your Star Wars Universe?
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

masque wrote:
Zahn is a decent writer. Lucas is not.


Sorry, but that just bothers me.

Remember, Lucas wrote Episodes 4, 5, and 6, perhaps the 3 greatest movies of all time, as well as the Indiana Jones movies.

I know that all this is opinion.... but I get tired of Lucas being judged only for the prequels and not for the entire body of work.

Okay, rant over.
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

masque wrote:
Kilgore wrote:

Most of the EU that I know about is rubbish in my oppinion and a have a strong dislike towards the whole Thrawn trilogy as it was written before the Prequels and clashes to much with the Prequels.

Funny, one of my main problems with the prequels is that they clash with the Thrawn trilogy, which in my opinion, is far superior. Zahn is a decent writer. Lucas is not.



As it is Lucas' universe he is the one who is right in my oppinion.

Thrawn wrote a story that some people like and some don't but since it is Lucas' universe he will always overrule Zahn in my oppinion.

But that is only my oppinion and we are all entitled to our own oppinion so if you prefer Zahn that is ofcourse your right.
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masque
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
masque wrote:
Zahn is a decent writer. Lucas is not.


Sorry, but that just bothers me.

Remember, Lucas wrote Episodes 4, 5, and 6, perhaps the 3 greatest movies of all time, as well as the Indiana Jones movies.


Uh, no. He wrote A New Hope. Empire and Return were written by Lawrence Kasdan. The Indiana Jones movies were written by Lawrence Kasdan (Raiders), Willard Hyuck and Gloria Katz (Temple of Doom), Jeffrey Boam (Last Crusade) and David Koepp (Crystal Skull). He also directed none of those but A New Hope. And with the Indiana Jones series, he had Spielberg's assistance with story, and Spielberg directed all of them.

Lucas is very good at coming up with a story in the broad strokes, which he certainly did with all of the Star Wars movies, and assisted with on the Indiana Jones flicks. I give him his due for that. But that is not writing. It's outlining, and editing. He contributes decent ideas, sure, and gets final say on what happens, but it takes people better than him at actually constructing a story to make those ideas work.

His problem is that he is a mediocre director and he can't produce a very good SCRIPT, which is how the story comes together and makes a good film. After making A New Hope, he figured that out, and turned over directing and scriptwriting duties to others who were better at it. That is why the sequels are much better films critically, especially Empire. He seems to have forgotten his strengths and weaknesses in the crafting of film in the intervening decades, or he just doesn't care about making a good story, and that's why the prequels are such a mess.

Back to my Zahn comment, it's not like what Zahn or any of the other writers in the EU (WEG material included) didn't have to have their work approved by Lucasfilm. Lucas had the same degree of control as he did with Empire and Return. He got final say over what could happen and couldn't, and other writers fleshed it out. But a level of continuity was established in that series and others, which, by the way, continued to fill Lucas' coffers.

He then pissed all over that continuity with the prequels, and pissed all over the fans who kept him rich with all that material they purchased out of love for his creation. Is it within his rights? Sure it is. He is the creator. But doing it the way he has smacks of contempt for the fans, and I no longer have to hold him or his work, especially when it's of such poor quality as it has been lately, as anything worthy of merit, or respect.
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Doomhead
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said masque - I agree whole heartedly.
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MA-3PO
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

masque wrote:
Lucas is very good at coming up with a story in the broad strokes, which he certainly did with all of the Star Wars movies, and assisted with on the Indiana Jones flicks.
And even saying that is a bit of a stretch. The plot of A New Hope was lifted from a Japanese samurai movie called "The Hidden Fortress".

I credit Lucas with giving Star Wars it's start but most of the things I love came from other minds. Whether you like Zahn or not, he and WEG got Star Wars going again after years of almost nothing after RotJ was released.
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masque
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akira Kurosawa. One of the greatest directors of all time.
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Teräskäsi
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much what masque said. Plus Lucas had a good eye for the style and technical details of the SW universe. For sure, he only managed the artists, but he had the vision and control.

Much of what he did was combining stuff like Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress and others, rather than making entirely new and unseen stuff, but his talent was partially in the ability to combine existing ideas and styles into something completely fresh and original.
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Rerun941
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely agree with what Masque said.

It's a shame that the great work that Zahn did got completely run over when Lucas developed Eps I-III as far as canon is concerned. Sadly, it's Lucas' universe in that regard and he has full creative control.

Now, just cuz he has creative control doesn't mean his stuff is perfect, nor does it mean that other people's stuff is crap. Just cuz it's not canon, doesn't mean is worthless, nor does canon = automatic perfection.

Which was the whole point of this thread in the first place. Laughing

Personally, I really liked Zahn's stuff and I choose to keep it in my universe. In fact, I can't really picture myself playing a game set prior to ANH unless it's like 5000 years before ANH.

Good points raised by all, keep it comin'!
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masque
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rerun941 wrote:

In fact, I can't really picture myself playing a game set prior to ANH unless it's like 5000 years before ANH.

I'm mostly in agreement there, being a big fan of the Tales of the Jedi comics. There is some other pre-ANH material I could and have used, the Daley Han Solo books being the most immediate example that occurs to me, since I'm re-reading them currently.
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Chandra Mindarass
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that always clashes with established material is, that I need freedom to create. Like I mentioned before: Only the OT is absolute to me. I will definitely use elements from the Zahn novels, Jedi Knight games ("Here's a guy who claims to be Jaden Korr") and other EU sources, just like I'm using KOTOR, Republic Commando and the Prequels as sources now. My players make their impact and after Endor, there is no excuse, why they shouldn't make their impact on the galaxy as a whole. They'll have 12 years in-game and 5 years off-game experience by then. They're in charge of a fleet, they will change the gaming world with their future actions. I also don't see any Grand Admirals flying around in my galaxy either and leave me alone with those Jazzin' Wongs.

Edit: It isn't hard to see Thrawn as one of a number of usurpers, who wanted to take over the Empire. Being quite successful at it and getting the majority of the Imperial Remnant to follow him, he had to create a position superior to the many self-styled supreme commanders, Moffs and Vizars, that also were around during that time. So he used a title he probably knew from Csilla, added the tinsel on the shoulders and got himself some Ysamalara...things. I should add, that nothing can exist outside the Force in my game. You can become immune to some of its effects, like Hutts or Toydarians, but the Ysalamari only distort the Force, maybe create a whirlpool in it, that doesn't allow powers to work.
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Chandra Mindarass
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear, I just read the plot of "the Force Unleashed". More bizarre retconning at the cost of continuity, feel and realism. Oh well. Is that supposed to be canon?!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandra Mindarass wrote:
Oh dear, I just read the plot of "the Force Unleashed". Is that supposed to be canon?!

It is a part of EU canon. I think the WotC book has some cool fluff in it for the Dark Times era, but overall I think the plot of the game and the main character are utterly rediculous. They've made this secret apprentice guy like a young Indiana Jones where his life is intertwined with many important people in history (in this case history of the Star Wars galaxy).

He started the Rebel Alliance which was intentionally created by the Empire? His family crest is the Rebel Alliance insignia? He is more powerful than the Emperor and Darth Vader were combined (crashing capital ships with the Force)? Bail Organa was actually on the Death Star before the events of ANH?

Chandra Mindarass wrote:
More bizarre retconning at the cost of continuity, feel and realism.

You said it. That's exactly why I view the entire body of EU as an à la carte menu. Put what you want on your plate and leave the rest behind. The plot of this game is not a part of MY Star Wars Universe, and the secret apprentice guy does not exist. The campaign I'm designing (set in the two years leading up to ANH) has an original Vader apprentice character of my own design.
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Chandra Mindarass
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pulling down a capital ship is something I could imagine to be a legend about some ancient Sith Lord like Marka Ragnos, whose knowledge is lost today. It makes a great hook to find his grave and might in the end turn out to be a myth, leaving the players with a fancy new lightsaber and a ship full of Gizkas.

Sometimes I really don't understand the people at Lucascorp. There are EU-ideas that really contributed something to the GFFA, like Nar Shaddaa, the history of the Sith and the Jedi or some of the stuff that was also later confirmed in the prequels. But then you have those absurdities, that make me wonder, if the executive producer/writer has ever even seen the OT.

Quote:
He started the Rebel Alliance which was intentionally created by the Empire?

He doesn't personally deliver the Death Star plans to Leia? I'm disappointed! Was he a pre-owner of the Millennium Falcon? Did he tell Yoda, Dagobah would be a good place to hide? Is there any limit to what writers are allowed to do?!

What really bothers me about a lot of Star Wars franchise is that there always has to be a precedence to the things that were established in the movies or classic EU material; making the people in it look like they're dull-witted epigones, who only repeat the patterns of the past. Example: In Darth Bane: Rule of Two(which is a great book otherwise!), Serenno is described as a world, whose Counts always tended towards separatism. So Jedi-master Dooku was only succumbing to his genes, when he turned into a Sith Lord to start the Clone Wars? Oh, and of course a guy named Valorum was chancellor at the time (~980BBY). KOTOR had a lot of examples, too. It a nuisance in the good books, comics and games, but really lame in the bad ones. It sacrifices great Star Wars mythology for a short-term boost of the franchise's importance.
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Falcon79
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hisham wrote:
ONLY the Ewok cartoons for me.







What? Razz


Same here... I sorta find something I like about each each of the eras.
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Jedi AlanRocks
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, I just found this place and WHERE HAVE YOU GUYS BEEN- I thought I was the only being left in the galaxy that played D6 Star Wars anymore! Thank the Force I found you!

I have recently started running a new campaign and like all my other campaigns it takes place a year or two after RotJ. I like this era because you can still have the Empire, you can still have the Rebellion as well as the "no mans land" between the two. It offers a lot of potential for war ravaged planets and recently liberated planets, to name a few.
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