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New Scale System
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking about folding the Called Shot rules from 2R&E into this system. Right now, scale stops at Character, with 0D, with Called Shots using Difficulty modifiers for hitting targets smaller than Character-Scale. Called Shots uses the following descriptors and modifiers:
    10-50cm = +1D to Difficulty
    1-10cm = +4D to Difficulty
    <1cm = +8D to Difficulty

What I'm picturing is flipping the system and applying Scale classification names for scales smaller than Character-Scale, like so:
    Fine -8D (-32)
    Diminutive -6D (-24)
    Tiny -4D (-16)
    Small -2D (-8)

    Character 0D
    Swoop +2D (+8)
    Speeder +4D (+16)
    Starship +6D (+24)
    Walker +8D (+32)
    Frigate +10D (+40)
    Destroyer +12D (+48)
    Dreadnought +16D (+64)
    Death Star +24D (+96)

I co-opted WOTC's Scale names because I'm just spit-balling here at the moment. Feel free to offer up any suggestions.

Unlike WOTC's system, characters who are smaller than humans won't drop down to Small scale. The only exceptions would be characters who are much smaller, like Hoojibs or Kowakian Monkey-Lizards.

For general descriptors, I'm thinking something like the following:
    Fine - Objects less than 1 cm in diameter.
    Diminutive - Small hand-held objects, such as comlinks, a deck of cards, data chips or hold-out blasters.
    Tiny - Larger hand-held objects, such as blaster pistols, data pads, and some tools.
    Small - Large hand-held or carried objects, such as blaster rifles, laptop-type computers or small storage boxes. Also includes living beings much smaller than humans.

As I said, I'm just spit-balling here, so any suggestions are appreciated.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index


Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is very similar to what WEG did for d6 Space, so there's precedent.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
It is very similar to what WEG did for d6 Space, so there's precedent.

Thanks for the pointer. They also provide some very useful examples for examples of the various sizes.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per CRM's request to move the 8km vs 19km SSD thread's debate on scale to this thread, I copied the following quote:

Whill wrote:
Just putting these two systems side-by-side to better wrap my head around CRMcNeill's system...

Jason Fry wrote:
The Anaxes War College System was a system for starship classification. It was established during the Clone Wars by the Republic Navy War College at Anaxes and subsequently used by the successive galactic governments.
...
According to this system, capital ships were divided into seven main classifications.

Corvettes: Ships of roughly 100 - 200 meters length
• Example: CR90 corvette, Marauder-class corvette

Frigates: Ships of roughly 200 - 400 meters length
• Example: Corona-class frigate, EF76 Nebulon-B escort frigate

Cruisers: Ships of roughly 400 - 600 meters length
• Example: Belarus-class medium cruiser, Broadside-class cruiser kdb-1

Heavy Cruisers: Ships of roughly 600 - 1000 meters length
• Example: Acclamator-class assault ship, Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser

Destroyers: Ships of roughly 1000 - 2000 meters length
• Example: Imperial-class Star Destroyer, Nebula-class Star Destroyer

Battlecruisers: Ships of roughly 2000 - 5000 meters length (small battlecruiser models were classed as "Star Cruisers", to separate them from larger ships of the type, but few recognized this classification as a formal part of the system.)
• Example: Bulwark-class battle cruiser, Praetor Mark II-class battlecruiser

Dreadnaughts: All ships over 5000 meters length
• Example: Executor-class Star Dreadnought, Kor Chokk grand cruiser

An abbreviated version of the system was also created, with three classifications—gunship, cruiser, and battleship
...
Despite the limits on dimensions, the system could sometimes move ship designs up or down in classification, depending on their armament and intended role.

Examples:
• The Carrack-class light cruiser, which would fall into the Frigate classification with its length of just 350 meters. Due to its armament and role, however, it was moved up into the Cruiser category.
• The Secutor-class Star Destroyer, a fleet carrier, was classified as a Star Destroyer due to its relatively light armament and focus on starfighter power, despite being 2200 meters long, the same length as the contemporary Allegiance-class battlecruiser.
• The Subjugator-class heavy cruiser was classified as a Dreadnought, due to its revolutionary ion cannons. Packed into a 4845 meter superstructure, the design would otherwise have been comparable to a large battlecruiser


CRMcNeill wrote:
So, up to this point, my scale system has gone through six different variations. Here's #7, addressing the concerns I mentioned above. It should be the last one. We'll see...
    Character 0D
    Swoop +2D (+8)
    Speeder +4D (+16)
    Starship +6D (+24)
    Walker +8D (+32)
    Frigate +10D (+40)
    Destroyer +12D (+48)
    Dreadnought +16D (+64)
    Death Star +24D (+96)
So, the explanations are as follows:
    Destroyer - The 4D gap between Frigate and Destroyer wasn't working for me, either. The RAW's +6D split between starfighters and capital ships makes the big ships hard enough to damage as it is, so I decided to move Destroyer back to the RAW's modifier of +12D, putting it 6D above starfighters and 2D above Frigate.

    Dreadnought - Because of some other considerations (particularly a House Rule that applied Scale modifiers to the Difficulty of performing Maneuvers, I decided to put Dreadnought-Class back into play for the really big monster ships, like the Executor.
To clarify, here is the revised list of what-goes-where...

Starship:
-Light Freighters
-Space Barges
-All starfighter types
-Cloud Cars

Walker:
-AT-AT
-Juggernaut
-Mobile Command Base
-Chariot Command Speeder
-Hoverscout
-Alliance Freerunner
-Heavy Tracker
-Speeder Truck
-Sail Barge

Frigate:
-Dreadnaught-Class Cruiser
-Alliance Assault Cruiser
-Interdictor
-Strike Cruiser
-Escort Carrier
-Carrack Light Cruiser
-Alliance Bulk Carrier
-Star Galleon
-Nebulon B Frigate
-Lancer-Class Frigate
-Corellian Corvette
-Corellian Gunship
-System Patrol Craft
-Assault Shuttle
-Blastboat
-Luxury Liner
-Container Ship
-Bulk Transport
-Medium Transport

Destroyer:
-Imperial Star Destroyer
-Victory Star Destroyer
-Torpedo Sphere
-Mon Calamari Cruiser

Dreadnought:
-Super Star Destroyer
CRMcNeill wrote:
Under my system, what WEG calls Light, Medium and Heavy Cruisers would be the upper end of Frigate-Scale, with anything Victory-Class Star Destroyer and up classed as Destroyer-Scale. Tentatively, anything above 3500 meters would be Dreadnought / Capital Ship-Scale.

Yeah I'm liking this one better. It's simpler.


Yeah, I think I'm liking this system too. I'll have to copy it.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you have also adapted the weapons scale as well?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So something just occurred to me as I was idly paging through Adventure Journal 12 and reading up on Imperial garrison stats: Under your new system, where would the standard pre-fab Imperial Garrison fall on your new Scale system, CRM? Under the old scale rules, it falls under "capital" scale. Would the garrison fall under Frigate scale in your system?

If it helps, I've come up with a few measurements based on the to scale drawings of the AT-AT walker next to the Imperial garrison in the Star Wars Sourcebook. The base length of the Imperial garrison is almost exactly 300 meters, the width is about 270 meters, while the height of the garrison (not including the turbolasers, the laser turrets and the TIE chutes, all of which have little to no space for personnel) is 47.5 meters.

Here are the original D6 stats for an Imperial garrison from Adventure Journal 12:

Adventure Journal 12, page 111 wrote:
Imperial Garrison
Scale: Capital
Personnel:3,000
Consumables: 1 year
Hull:7D
Shields: 3D
Sensors:
Passive: 40/1D
Scan: 60/3D
Search: 80/4D
Focus: 10/4D+2
Weapons:
3 Heavy Twin Turbolasers

Fire Arc: Turret
Crew: 3
Skill: Blaster Artillery
Fire Control: 3D
Space Range: 3-15/35/75
Atmosphere Range: 6-30/70/150km
Damage: 7D
6 Heavy Twin Laser Cannon
Fire Arc: Forward*
Crew: 2
Scale: Walker
Skill: Blaster Artillery
Fire Control: 2D
Atmosphere Range: 50-500m/1km/2km
Damage: 7D
3 Tractor Beams
Fire Arc: Forward*
Crew: 4
Scale: Starfighter
Skill: Blaster Artillery
Fire Control: 3D
Atmosphere Range: 50-250m/750m/1.5km
Damage: 6D
* Each weapon faces outward from the hexagonal garrison along one of its six points, allowing for overlapping fields of fire.


I assume with these measurements, the garrison falls under Frigate scale? And do the weapons need to have their scale modified as well?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
I assume with these measurements, the garrison falls under Frigate scale? And do the weapons need to have their scale modified as well?

I haven't gotten around to the garrison base yet, but since its WEG stats put it equal in durability to an ISD, and since it can't dodge, I'd probably put it at Destroyer-Scale.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
do you have also adapted the weapons scale as well?

For the most part, weapons scales are the same.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
I assume with these measurements, the garrison falls under Frigate scale? And do the weapons need to have their scale modified as well?

I haven't gotten around to the garrison base yet, but since its WEG stats put it equal in durability to an ISD, and since it can't dodge, I'd probably put it at Destroyer-Scale.


Oh, really...?

*evil grin*

Darth Vader wrote:
Impressive...Most impressive.

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see some weapons on a ship being different scale.. Using your stat scale block something like a carrack (frigate scale) could have say 8 of its 20 turbos being destroyer scale, 8 being frigate scale and 4 being starship scale....
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
I assume with these measurements, the garrison falls under Frigate scale? And do the weapons need to have their scale modified as well?

I haven't gotten around to the garrison base yet, but since its WEG stats put it equal in durability to an ISD, and since it can't dodge, I'd probably put it at Destroyer-Scale.


Oh, really...?

*evil grin*

Darth Vader wrote:
Impressive...Most impressive.

IMO, garrison bases should also be equipped with the partial planetary shield projector found in the Dark Empire Sourcebook. It's not enough to protect an entire planet, but more than enough to cover the base and its immediate surroundings. This forces any attackers to forego orbital bombardment and engage the base with either ground assault or starfighter attacks.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I can see some weapons on a ship being different scale.. Using your stat scale block something like a carrack (frigate scale) could have say 8 of its 20 turbos being destroyer scale, 8 being frigate scale and 4 being starship scale....

Actually, since Frigate-Scale is only 4D above Starship-Scale, it becomes simpler for turbolasers to engage starfighters with massed fire. They wont be great at it, but a -4D modifier is still an improvement over -6D.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
denderan marajain wrote:
do you have also adapted the weapons scale as well?

For the most part, weapons scales are the same.


and for the less part Wink ?
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
IMO, garrison bases should also be equipped with the partial planetary shield projector found in the Dark Empire Sourcebook. It's not enough to protect an entire planet, but more than enough to cover the base and its immediate surroundings. This forces any attackers to forego orbital bombardment and engage the base with either ground assault or starfighter attacks.


Yup, the same thing that happened at Hoth, so it would make sense for the Empire to add the same shield protection for their own garrisons. Not that the Rebels have the means to carry out planetary bombardments of garrisons, not just because to avoid civilian casualties (many garrisons are located in the middle of cities, after all) but also because of a lack of capital ships powerful enough to blast through a garrison's shields.

I'm still comparing the two, but since the Dark Empire Sourcebook came out in 1993, and Hideouts and Strongholds, which came out in 1998 and has more recent info on planetary shields, wouldn't Hideouts be the better resource for planetary shields? I'm just asking, I have to finish reading both entries and compare the two planet shields.

I'm thinking that an Imperial garrison would have a shield similar to the one protecting Echo Base and that shield had a diameter of about 530 meters (judging from the diagram of the shield compared to the 90 meter Gallofree transports in GG3:Empire Strikes Back). That's more than enough to protect the hexagonal garrison building and its perimeter; though a larger shield would be needed to protect a multibuilding garrison complex.

EDIT: The Star Wars Sourcebook references shield generators in the Imperial Garrison, but they're not statted anywhere. And the Adventure Journal didn't stat them either, so it's time to research both versions of the planetary shields then add them to my homebrew garrison stats. CRM, your input on these shield generators would be useful also.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I can see some weapons on a ship being different scale.. Using your stat scale block something like a carrack (frigate scale) could have say 8 of its 20 turbos being destroyer scale, 8 being frigate scale and 4 being starship scale....

Actually, since Frigate-Scale is only 4D above Starship-Scale, it becomes simpler for turbolasers to engage starfighters with massed fire. They wont be great at it, but a -4D modifier is still an improvement over -6D.


Exactly. Combine the fire, use the bonus to offset the scale penalties, and when you thwack them with a shot, its not an overkill...
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