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FFG SW RPG
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Azai
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll sign the petition.

Seems like they are going into Minis first. Which I wouldn't mind. I loved the star wars minis, but I am used to Games Workshop detail... And WotC didn't get up to that. (Note that I also have a loved hate relationship with Games Workshop because of costs... And it just being them)

Then the card game too, it'd be interesting if they kinda took a star wars galaxy trading card route, and had all the cards drawn by artist. They had some amazing star wars artwork for galaxies trading card game.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was wondering...

From a financial standpoint, what makes more sense for this new company? Do they stick to OpenGL D20, revert back to Open D6, or come up with a completely new system?

From a purely mercenary standpoint, if they choose to stick with D20, I would think that they are limiting their options, since the D20 books cover most, if not all of the most recent material, and as such, there would be little incentive to purchase a new D20 book to replace a D20 book that you have already paid for.

If, on the other hand, they went for a completely new system, they would be starting from square one trying to spark interest in a completely new rule set, plus the fact that there would now be two separate communities who would not be willing to transfer over to the new system (D6 and D20). The D6 community would do what it has done for years; take the new books and convert the stats over to D6 rules, and D20 would likely follow in our footsteps.

In the end, going back to D6 might be a good move for FFG for a variety of reasons:

1). They can republish all of the D20 stats and material, and since the unofficial material produced by this forum isn't copyrighted, most of the work has practically been done for them.
2). Since D6 is Open License, they don't have to develop a new gaming system, just use one that has been in existence for decades and has maintained a loyal following through thick and thin.

Thoughts?
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
So I was wondering...

From a financial standpoint, what makes more sense for this new company? Do they stick to OpenGL D20, revert back to Open D6, or come up with a completely new system?


D20: D20 is a common system that almost any gamer has used, even if it dosnt seem that popular among SW fans. It would make sense to use this system for that reason alone. Basic material has been covered well, but there is still a lot of room for regional resources and adventures.

D6: D6 has proven itself over the long run. Its a well loved system that has stood the test of time. It covers Star Wars very well through the Rebellion/early New Republic era, but there is still a lot of room for new adventures or almost anything from other time periods. Obviously, we would all prefer to see things taken in this direction.

Their own system: This is the way I expect them to go. FFG has done several of their own game systems over the years. Most of those have been VERY well done. Star Wars is going to be important to them, so they will want to do something to make their Star Wars RPG stand out from previous games. Because of this, I expect its likely they will want to create their own system for the game, or even use one of their existing game systems just for the sake of making the game their own.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
but I am used to Games Workshop detail... And WotC didn't get up to that. (Note that I also have a loved hate relationship with Games Workshop because of costs... And it just being them)
And the need of their artists to sculpt really huge guns and swords always makes me wonder what they are compensating for.

Guardian_A wrote:
Their own system: This is the way I expect them to go.
I would expect this as well. Ego factors into far more business decisions than a 'rational man' economic theory would suggest.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's also not forget that you milk the consumer most with the core book, since all the GMs and a good portion of the players will buy that one. The rest of the series isn't an assured sell. It makes sense to produce something new rather than provide something that can be used as is with a previous iteration.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope they use D6, but I do realistically expect them to make a new system or adapt a non-D6, non-d20 system. That might work to give some SW gamers an added incentive to buy everything instead of try to depend on the plethra of D6 or d20 material already out there.

I didn't suggest as petition out of some quixiotic vision that it would likely make any difference. The first reason I suggested that is because I try not to default to pessimism just because it be a one-in-a-million shot. You don't know if you don't try. If we petition and fail, then we really haven't lost anything that we didn't already have, so I don't see the harm in it.

The second reason is, if the petition fails and the new system bombs, then I can say, "We tried to get you to use D6 but you wouldn't listen..." I can blame the new game's failure on FFG not using D6 (whether that has anything to do with it or not). It's not my usual nature to gloat, but for this I may make an exeption. 8)

All that being said, FFG could make a steaming pile of Bantha poodu and I'll still at least buy the new core book just because it is a SW RPG. I despise the d20 system but that didn't stop me from getting all three WotC SW core books, a few various books of their first two editions, and the entire line of Saga Edition books. After the new core book, then I will likely be more discriminating. I'm optimistic that although I may not like the game system, their game line still might have some good fluff and art to work with like WotC had. But I know they already have me for at least one sale. The way I look at it, that gives me the right to petition for the D6 game system - I promise to buy whatever they make, win or lose.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The second reason is, if the petition fails and the new system bombs, then I can say, "We tried to get you to use D6 but you wouldn't listen..." I can blame the new game's failure on FFG not using D6 (whether that has anything to do with it or not). It's not my usual nature to gloat, but for this I may make an exeption. 8)


LMAO. Twisted Evil Let me know where I can sign.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Azai
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm serious too. If you get a petition going Whill, I'll sign it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I think there are multiple free petition websites out there. Anyone have any suggestions?

Also, is anyone brave enough to scan RPG.net to get the general pulse of the gaming community at large regarding this news? I went there a few hours after the news first broke and the thread was already at 7 pages and counting...
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things you have to be careful with is the possible legal ramifications. If they do use D6 in a format compatible to what we're used to, then they might take a dim view of things such as the stat books. The owner of WEG was already really unhappy that they'd been made without asking his permission (a fact I was rather embarrassed by, particularly given my lead in the Force book).

One way or the other, we really don't know what their policy is going to be on fan creations. Some companies are cooler about fan generated products than others. It is a possibility (though not necessarily very probable) that they will ask us to stop producing fan-based products in something that isn't their system.

Does anyone know how FFG is about fan work? I know that Decipher was just horrible about their Lord of the Rings, RPG. WotC has been pretty cool about their Star Wars game.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for chiming in cheshire. I highly value your imput. Please allow me to play the devil's advocate and bounce some things off of you...

cheshire wrote:
One of the things you have to be careful with is the possible legal ramifications... The owner of WEG was already really unhappy that they'd been made without asking his permission (a fact I was rather embarrassed by, particularly given my lead in the Force book)

I may be mistaken, but I thought Eric Gibson's main issue with the fan books was the "Inspired by WEG" with the WEG logo. He does own that trademark. However, the use of Star Wars IP fluff text wouldn't be his concern, and the presense of actual D6 system game mechanical text is very minimal when you are mostly only using D6 stat blocks.

And I was not aware that Gibson's unhappiness lead to any legal ramifications. Are you saying that he threatened legal action but then relented? Are you saying that he could have pursued legal action but just chose not to? This may sound cold, but I'm not sure that his emotional state alone is something that we should be overly concerned about. His emotions are what left the Septimus hardbacks sitting in a warehouse in California unclaimed, sacrificing his deposit on the print job from a Chinese printer he got angry at over something minor. And that was the 2nd failed attempt to get that game published. Gibson has certainly proven over the years that he is a hot-head that often gets mad at his own customers and screws them over by taking their money and not paying it back for a couple years after no product was delivered. What other RPG game company owner has gotten banned by RPG.net? Eric Gibson's public persona seems to be generally antagonistic and unhappy about everything!

cheshire wrote:
One way or the other, we really don't know what their policy is going to be on fan creations. Some companies are cooler about fan generated products than others. It is a possibility (though not necessarily very probable) that they will ask us to stop producing fan-based products in something that isn't their system.

Does anyone know how FFG is about fan work? ...WotC has been pretty cool about their Star Wars game.

Yes, WotC used d20 and they seemed to have no issue with our converting their stats to D6 in our free fan-created stat books. I'm not sure how it would be any different if FFC also does not use D6 as their RPG's game engine.

cheshire wrote:
One of the things you have to be careful with is the possible legal ramifications. If they do use D6 in a format compatible to what we're used to, then they might take a dim view of things such as the stat books...

Does anyone know how FFG is about fan work? ...WotC has been pretty cool about their Star Wars game

I think you are saying here that WotC may have only been cool about our D6-based fan creations because they did not use WotC's d20 system, and thus FFC may not approve of D6-based fan creations if they do use D6. Is that a warning that we should be careful what we wish for?

If so, I respect your position but I feel the benefit of a newly-published D6 Star Wars RPG would outweigh the value of the stat books. I don't mean to diminish the time and hard work you have put into them, but I would gladly welcome a cease-and-desist order for the production and availability of our fan creations if it meant a new Star Wars D6 game were being produced. I would happily choose the legally, officially published SW D6 game over our community's unofficially produced material. And our fan community is not going anywhere with or without the fan books, so it seems to me that we could do without them if we legally had to.

cheshire wrote:
One of the things you have to be careful with is the possible legal ramifications.

I think a far greater legal concern is and always has been the use of Star Wars IP in fan creations. Yet Lucasfilm has always been very consistent in their policy of only going after those who attempt to profit from Star Wars without a legal license to do so. There is so much non-profit Star Wars material on the internet that it's mind-boggling. And much of that is completely legal under Fair Use laws. Wookieepedia alone has over 85,500 articles on official Star Wars material. Lucas even encourages Star Wars fan films to be made and personally provides a annual award to best one, but no one dares to make a penny off of them to avoid legal ramifications.

We and our RPG fan creations are just a tiny drop of water in the vast ocean of unofficial non-profit Star Wars matertial on the internet. You do not make money or even accept donations for your fan creations, and as a public web community we do not particiapte in or condone the free proliferation of bootlegged Star Wars books from any publisher. Since we and all the other millions of non-profit drops of water on the internet haven't seen any legal ramifications from Lucasfilm, I don't expect that to change.
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as us doing conversion work on other suppliments, I'd be surprised if they had a problem with it. Here are a couple of things to consider:

1. If we want to convert the materials, we will need to buy the books.

2. If we take the time to create rules to convert the stats, that process can be reversed. This means that anyone using their gaming system will have access to the old D6 materials as well.

3. Star Wars D6 has been successful largely because of our ability and willingness to expand our gaming universe on our own. Gamers will always make their own materials, so it wouldnt make sense for them to make a big fuss about a little conversion work. It wouldnt make more sense for them to try to win us over.
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Azai
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legally could they truly do anything?

If the D6 is an open system now that anyone can use, and we are not making profits from what we do... How legal grounds could they have?

Even if they sent a cease and desist... What could it stand on? I know many companies will just go that far to 'scare' people.

Though I do believe we should have these discussion before we jump towards something, to make sure all angles are covered, and we are sure were we can stand.
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
Legally could they truly do anything?

If the D6 is an open system now that anyone can use, and we are not making profits from what we do... How legal grounds could they have?

Even if they sent a cease and desist... What could it stand on? I know many companies will just go that far to 'scare' people.

Though I do believe we should have these discussion before we jump towards something, to make sure all angles are covered, and we are sure were we can stand.


I think it will really depend on how "Official" we make our stuff, if we are taking pictures and stuff directly from their material, then they may have room to complain. Otherwise, I cant see the harm.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but there are intellectual property rights and such that cover more than just what they print, if I understand correctly.
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