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Praxian
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 190
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 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Praxian wrote: | | So while yes, there had to be -someone- that was the First Sith Lord, that someone was probably trained as a light-side Jedi at first, and then trained under someone who was a dark-side Force user second. |
That just begs a different question. Who was the first light side force master? Logically there must be a means of discovering new powers without being trained so that someone can become the first master (either light or dark) otherwise there is an infinite regress of past force masters, which in a temporarally finite universe, is a logical contradiction. And the ability to learn without a trainer is what we see in the rules, training just guides the student and reduces the time and CP cost of learning new skills and attributes. Logically the same should be true of light and dark force powers.
To me this suggests making the CP and time costs very high without a trainer, but not impossible. |
Same. In my campaigns if a character wants to learn a power with no master, they do not get the option when they learn a force-die up (raising control, sense or alter). Instead they have to spend 15 points per stat power (15 for just control, 30 for 2 stats, and 45 for control, sense, AND alter). makes it capable of learning without a teacher. Of course, they still have to make sense for the PC to learn it. Not gonna let someone learn beast languages if they have zero interaction with animals. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Praxian wrote: | | Of course, they still have to make sense for the PC to learn it. Not gonna let someone learn beast languages if they have zero interaction with animals. |
Totally agree.  Powers need to be appropriate to the attitude, skills, force abilities, style, tone, and in game occurrences of the force users. As a GM, I am happy to discuss with a player what powers he wants his Jedi to learn, but if after discussion the power doesn't make sense the Jedi isn't learning it. Now, if the power was one I felt made sense for the PC to learn, I'd probably charge a lot less extra CPs than you suggest. |
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Hellcat
Grand Moff
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 11921
Location: New England
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think it depends. If they create the character and put in certain powers at the time of creation that they then don't use because they don't get a chance it goes more to personality. If they learn powers during the course of the adventure that they know they'll probably never use, that can be a different story. And if they learn powers they think might be useful but don't know if they'll use or not, it's something I'd say is allowable.
Animal life tends to show up where you least expect to find it. So if they don't know whether or not they'll encounter some and are learning beast languages as a "just in case" type of thing, that's one thing. If they know for absolutely certain there's never going to be an instance where they'll need this power, then it's more the player trying to make an uber-Jedi.
Personality wise it's really got to be done at the time of creation personally. It's saying more that what the character was going to do or what they had been trained for. Like if the player gives their character healing powers then their character is probably intending to be a healer or was trained for that role. In any kind of adventure a Force-sensitive character with healing powers wouldn't be out of place. But what about a Force-sensitive whose looking to be more of a starship pilot. Giving them instintive astrogation and instinctinve astrogation control would certainly suggest the character is more geared towards space travel, but then having the adventure end up being totally planet side means they'd never be able to use these powers.
Granted I may allow my players to get away with more than most so they may have more powers than most would allow.
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Hellcat wrote: | | I think it depends. |
Everything depends.  But I can't tell if the same dependencies matter to you and I. To try to understand better what you mean, I will describe how I would view the powers you mention as the GM.
| Quote: | | If they create the character and put in certain powers at the time of creation... |
Powers at character creation should be consistent with character background and personality. Together with the attributes and sklls they should present a coherent person. I'm more concerned with that than with whether I think a particular force power will be used a lot or a little in the future. That being said, I will tend to try to guide the player in the direction of force powers I see as useful and not overpowering for a given level of play. While I attempt to be as flexible as possible as a GM, all skills, attributes, etc. must be approved before they are allowed. A character creating a Jedi as a starting character will need to come up with powers, skills, and attributes that is (1) consistent with their background and personality and (2) that will more or less fit with the other PCs and with what has gone before in our house campaign.
| Quote: | | ...learning beast languages... |
Generally I plan to run extended campaigns so eventually they will be on several planets with animal life. Whether beast languages makes sense for a PC for me again depends on background and personaliy. Is either in harmony with the natural world. Does the character come from a primitive or rural background? Does the character see animals as instrinsically worthwhile or valuable? Do they have a friendly and open attitude towards nature? Would the character (and player) enjoy having an animal friend? If the answer to all those questions is no, then learning beast languages makes no sense for that PC. In addition, I'd look at whether the PC (and player) sees animals as just one more obstacle in their way or as something that is intrinsically interesting to interact with and understand. We also often limit the power to a particular type of creature. For example, my Jedi PC Bren can communicate with birds, though, for a number of reasons (familiy history and name, personality, liking for heights and piloting, and interactions in game) he is most closely connected to birds of prey.
| Quote: | | Like if the player gives their character healing powers then their character is probably intending to be a healer or was trained for that role. |
Past training would make gaining further healing powers make sense, though also an attitude that fosters healing would also be necessary.
| Quote: | | But what about a Force-sensitive whose looking to be more of a starship pilot. |
Does the character like to fly? Are they like Anakin in wanting to always jump into the pilot seat whenever they travel? Do they have a competitive, starfighter pilot attitude? Do they like, rather than fear, heights and open spaces? Do they like the stars or astronomy? Do they enjoy the process of travel in space? Are they instinctive in other ways in life? Are they able to trust their lives and the lives of others to the force (which you are doing with instinctive astrogation)?
I expect that some adventures will be more appropriate for a given set of skills and powers. This is true for normals as well as force users. I don't think this is a problem, really more an opportunity to illustrate while some skill and power diversity is a good thing for future character development. But I also feel that it is the GM's job to try to find ways to include lots of different opportunities for skill and power use so that all the characters have an opportunity to do something crucial, fun, or cool in any given adventure.
Does any of that make sense, Hellcat? |
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Praxian
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Praxian wrote: | | Of course, they still have to make sense for the PC to learn it. Not gonna let someone learn beast languages if they have zero interaction with animals. |
Totally agree. Powers need to be appropriate to the attitude, skills, force abilities, style, tone, and in game occurrences of the force users. As a GM, I am happy to discuss with a player what powers he wants his Jedi to learn, but if after discussion the power doesn't make sense the Jedi isn't learning it. Now, if the power was one I felt made sense for the PC to learn, I'd probably charge a lot less extra CPs than you suggest. |
Well, I make it more expensive for several reasons:
1) Game always says things are easier learned with a master
2) When you -raise- a force stat (Control, Sense, or Alter) you are able to learn a power for free tied to that stat provided the GM says ok
3) If the PC can just pay 5 points and learn a power (with a teacher), it should be much more expensive than that by itself.
Number 3 was my driving motivation for making it 15 points with no teacher. For just 5 little character points, you too, can learn a power without raising a force stat. I made it more expensive because I wanted players to find those teachers for powers in game for certain ones, and it does discourage players to buy the power like that unless they really really really want it. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Praxian wrote: | Well, I make it more expensive for several reasons: ...
3) If the PC can just pay 5 points and learn a power (with a teacher), it should be much more expensive than that by itself.
Number 3 was my driving motivation for making it 15 points with no teacher. For just 5 little character points, you too, can learn a power without raising a force stat. I made it more expensive because I wanted players to find those teachers for powers in game for certain ones, and it does discourage players to buy the power like that unless they really really really want it. |
Thanks for explaining Praxian. I see where you are coming from. Since the general increase in cost without a trainer is double, I would probably only double if I wanted to charge a higher cost.
We actually have never had anyone add a skill without increasing the force abilities. We tend to treat the number of acquired skills as slots and let Jedi acquire skills only up to that level. Often we let the Jedi characters gain a new skill even without a trainer, though often the acquisition is tied to some event in the adventure that provides new insight justifying the new skill or just occurs later once they come across a trainer. The player may lobby for what skill they acquire, but it is up to the GM. Also, this isn't always to the PCs advantage. My Jedi, Bren, learned Feed Off the Dark Side and Force Lightning not because I wanted him to learn those powers (nor truth be told did he want to learn those powers) but because on various adventures Dark Siders used the skills against him. The GM decided he later gained that knowledge when he upped his Force abilities. That used up a couple of slots each. Now my character has to deal with the potential temptation of knowing how to use the Dark Side. 
BTW - unrelated question: Is your forum name from Prax in Glorantha? |
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Are we talking about player characters becoming Sith?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | Are we talking about player characters becoming Sith? |
No Random, <waves hand in mystic gesture> this is not the conversation you are looking for. 
Actually, I think we morphed to discussing acquiring force skills more generally, which as you so gently point out, means we are off topic. |
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Praxian
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Praxian wrote: | Well, I make it more expensive for several reasons: ...
3) If the PC can just pay 5 points and learn a power (with a teacher), it should be much more expensive than that by itself.
Number 3 was my driving motivation for making it 15 points with no teacher. For just 5 little character points, you too, can learn a power without raising a force stat. I made it more expensive because I wanted players to find those teachers for powers in game for certain ones, and it does discourage players to buy the power like that unless they really really really want it. |
Thanks for explaining Praxian. I see where you are coming from. Since the general increase in cost without a trainer is double, I would probably only double if I wanted to charge a higher cost.
We actually have never had anyone add a skill without increasing the force abilities. We tend to treat the number of acquired skills as slots and let Jedi acquire skills only up to that level. Often we let the Jedi characters gain a new skill even without a trainer, though often the acquisition is tied to some event in the adventure that provides new insight justifying the new skill or just occurs later once they come across a trainer. The player may lobby for what skill they acquire, but it is up to the GM. Also, this isn't always to the PCs advantage. My Jedi, Bren, learned Feed Off the Dark Side and Force Lightning not because I wanted him to learn those powers (nor truth be told did he want to learn those powers) but because on various adventures Dark Siders used the skills against him. The GM decided he later gained that knowledge when he upped his Force abilities. That used up a couple of slots each. Now my character has to deal with the potential temptation of knowing how to use the Dark Side.
BTW - unrelated question: Is your forum name from Prax in Glorantha? |
I had thought about double myself, but really wanted to steer away from players saving up over 2 sessions to buy a force power they wanted with no teacher.
Thus the triple cost + the cost per stat on top of it.
And most likely. I don't do too much on a lot of forums (but this one - lol) but when I have to make a new forum name somewhere I usually do indeed use Praxian (been an online nick that I've been using since 1997 - lol). |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Praxian just always reminds me of Glorantha and Runequest - which I played a lot of in the eighties.  |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | Are we talking about player characters becoming Sith? |
No Random, <waves hand in mystic gesture> this is not the conversation you are looking for.
Actually, I think we morphed to discussing acquiring force skills more generally, which as you so gently point out, means we are off topic. |
He wish!
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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POWER UNLIMITEEED! *crackle* *pop*
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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With me, they have to
A) know the power exists
B) have seen it used first hand (whether on them or not)
and C) pay 10cp to learn it without a master.
Also when training up your force skills, they don't automatically GET the new power if they are self training.
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