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garhkal
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 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I have seen around a Dozen pcs who did just that. Pop a FP to medpack themselves.. and 5 still failed.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have seen around a Dozen pcs who did just that. Pop a FP to medpack themselves.. and 5 still failed. |
Did they have no CPs? Did they have no friends or allies?  Seems like a selfish and not very effective use of a FP even before failing the roll. Personally, it would make for better drama and more effective (and unselfish) FP usage to have a friend spend the FP to try to save the wounded character. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I have seen around a Dozen pcs who did just that. Pop a FP to medpack themselves.. and 5 still failed. |
Did they have no CPs? Did they have no friends or allies? Seems like a selfish and not very effective use of a FP even before failing the roll. Personally, it would make for better drama and more effective (and unselfish) FP usage to have a friend spend the FP to try to save the wounded character. |
But remember? garhkal runs games where players of mortally wounded characters have to 'metagame' announce to the group every round that they are not helping their dying comrade. If the group of players is so "every man for himself" then selfish might be the only way to survive! 8)
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But remember? garhkal runs games where players of mortally wounded characters have to 'metagame' announce to the group every round that they are not helping their dying comrade. If the group of players is so "every man for himself" then selfish might be the only way to survive! 8) |
Point.  I just like to think that people in combat together will care about their pals, buddies, team mates, mess mates, etc. It seems a human reaction to fear, stress, and shared risk. That seems like a universal human* reaction regardless of whether the campaign tone is heroic space opera or gritty squad leader tactics. I would find it frustrating as either a GM or a player to have most players ignore those reactions.
* While not universally true, I suspect this is probably true for most sentient species that survive to reach an advanced state of technology. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I have seen around a Dozen pcs who did just that. Pop a FP to medpack themselves.. and 5 still failed. |
Did they have no CPs? Did they have no friends or allies? Seems like a selfish and not very effective use of a FP even before failing the roll. Personally, it would make for better drama and more effective (and unselfish) FP usage to have a friend spend the FP to try to save the wounded character. |
Many did, but using F/Aid is a 2cp cap since it is not life threatening or a specialty (to where you can use 5).. So they worked it out popping the FP would give them the better odds.
AND YES, they didn't earn it back.
| Quote: | | Personally, it would make for better drama and more effective (and unselfish) FP usage to have a friend spend the FP to try to save the wounded character. |
I have seen plenty of that. Heck some gms allow you to "half your dice pool' to medpack 2 people at the same time.. So i have seen 3 pcs (inc me) do the spend FP to double up, then half it back to normal level..
| Quote: | | Point. Wink I just like to think that people in combat together will care about their pals, buddies, team mates, mess mates, etc. It seems a human reaction to fear, stress, and shared risk. That seems like a universal human* reaction regardless of whether the campaign tone is heroic space opera or gritty squad leader tactics. I would find it frustrating as either a GM or a player to have most players ignore those reactions. |
It also depends on what is going on. Some times it is more stupid to put a healthy individual into risk area, to grab that downed companion, to drag him back to render aid..
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Many did, but using F/Aid is a 2cp cap since it is not life threatening or a specialty (to where you can use 5).. So they worked it out popping the FP would give them the better odds. |
Sometimes when first aiding another it is life threatening. Would you allow spending 5CP in those situations?
| Quote: | | AND YES, they didn't earn it back. |
Of course they didn't. I would have been shocked if you had said otherwise.  And in general I agree with this ruling.
| Quote: | | It also depends on what is going on. Some times it is more stupid to put a healthy individual into risk area, to grab that downed companion, to drag him back to render aid.. |
That's why in real life they often give medals to people who run out into danger to try to save a wounded comrade. And from a roleplaying rather than roll playing standpoint, it may make sense for a character to try to save a buddy. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Sometimes when first aiding another it is life threatening. Would you allow spending 5CP in those situations? |
For the F/aid itself no.. since that act is not life threatening. HOW ever, blocking/dodging/parrying and/or soaks to stop yourself Being damaged WHILE doing so do count..
| Quote: |
That's why in real life they often give medals to people who run out into danger to try to save a wounded comrade. And from a roleplaying rather than roll playing standpoint, it may make sense for a character to try to save a buddy. |
That is true. BUT a good many are handed out posthumously!
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: |
Sometimes when first aiding another it is life threatening. Would you allow spending 5CP in those situations? |
For the F/aid itself no.. since that act is not life threatening. HOW ever, blocking/dodging/parrying and/or soaks to stop yourself Being damaged WHILE doing so do count.. |
I don't follow your logic. Sometimes a bad first aid roll (or no first aid roll) is life threatening. Let's walk through the two situations.
Regarding dodge and parry - this occurs before damage is rolled so at the actual time the player/character decides to spend CPs it is unknown if the damage roll will actually exceed the soak roll and be life threatening. Even for a so called soak roll, I believe according to the rules the player/character must decide how many CPs to add before the damage is determined. (Now I know that many people do the damage roll first, but I don't think this is the RAW). So even here it is not known that the character's life is threatened. And even those groups that allow the CPs to be spent after the damage is determined still allow up to five CPs to be spent to reduce damage when the character's life is not threated, i.e. to reduce damage from say wounded or stunned to no result.
Now in the case of a first aid roll to a sufficiently wounded character i.e. mortally wounded, it is known that the character's life is actually threatened. So why not allow spending 5 CPs in this case?
In addition a sufficiently bad roll can, IIR, do additional damage to the target, which for a sufficiently wounded character e.g. incapacitated or mortally wounded threatens their life. This seems quite analogous to the case of adding CPs to lessen the wound effect for a soak roll. So again, why not allow spending up to 5 CPs in this case?
| Quote: | | That is true. BUT a good many are handed out posthumously! |
True enough. A number of the medals in our Star Wars campaign were handed out to characters posthumously. One character even had a Rebel ship named after her posthumously. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Regarding dodge and parry - this occurs before damage is rolled so at the actual time the player/character decides to spend CPs it is unknown if the damage roll will actually exceed the soak roll and be life threatening. Even for a so called soak roll, I believe according to the rules the player/character must decide how many CPs to add before the damage is determined. (Now I know that many people do the damage roll first, but I don't think this is the RAW). So even here it is not known that the character's life is threatened. And even those groups that allow the CPs to be spent after the damage is determined still allow up to five CPs to be spent to reduce damage when the character's life is not threated, i.e. to reduce damage from say wounded or stunned to no result. |
The RAW says you roll your soak and decide after you see your result if you wish to spend points. Most gms i have every been around do it where they, even if not outright telling you "YOUR GOING TO DIE or ITS A FLESH WOUND" at least give hinting, such as
"Are you happy with that number"
"are you sure you wish to leave it there"
to give the pc the idea they need to spend CP or bad things will happen.
| Quote: | | In addition a sufficiently bad roll can, IIR, do additional damage to the target, which for a sufficiently wounded character e.g. incapacitated or mortally wounded threatens their life. This seems quite analogous to the case of adding CPs to lessen the wound effect for a soak roll. So again, why not allow spending up to 5 CPs in this case? |
Negative. You can only worsen your health level when using NATURAL healing rules. using a Med pack all you can do is 'over-drive' the body's system and make it so no more can be used for 24 hrs..
| Code: | Natural Healing
A character can heal naturally, but this process is both slower and much riskier than bacta healing. The character must rest a specified amount of time and then can make a healing roll: roll the character's full
Strength to see if the character heals. Healing characters can do doing virtually nothing but rest. A character who tries to work, exercise or
adventure must subtract-ID from his Strength when he makes his healing roll. Any character who opts to "take it easy" and do virtually nothing for twice the necessary time may add +1D to his Strength roll to heal.
A wounded character must rest for three standard days before rolling to heal.
Strength Roll - Result
2-4 - Character worsens to wounded twice
5-6 - Character remains wounded
7+ - Character is fully healed
A character who is wounded twice must rest for three days before rolling to heal.
Strength Roll - Result
2-4 - Character worsens to incapacitated
5-6 - Character remains wounded twice
7+ - Character improves to wounded
Incapacitated characters must rest for two weeks before making a healing roll.
Strength Roll Result
2-6 Character worsens to mortally wounded
7-8 Character remains incapacitated
9+ Character improves to wounded twice
Mortally wounded characters must rest for one month (35 standard days) before making a healing roll.
Strength Roll Result
2-6 Character dies
7-8 Character remains mortally wounded
9+ Character improves to incapacitated
Example: Thannik is incapacitated and is healing naturally. After resting for two weeks, he makes his Strength roll and gets a 10 — he improves
to wounded twice. To heal from wounded twice to wounded, he
must rest for another three days before making his healing roll.
Medpacs
A standard medpac contains a combination of healing medicines, syntheflesh, coagulants, body chemistry boosters, adrenaline drugs, and computer diagnostic hardware to treat seriously injured individuals. Medpacs are very common around the galaxy and can be found aboard most starships, in most buildings and homes ... and anyone who thinks he might get into a battle is advised to carry a couple, too.
If the first aid roll is unsuccessful, the character's condition remains the same. If the first aid roll misses the difficulty by more than 10 points, the medpac has pushed the injured character's body to its limit, and no
more medpacs can be used on him for a full standard day (24 hour period).
Mulitple medpacs can be used on a character within a single day, but increase the first aid difficulty one level for each additional use. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | The RAW says you roll your soak and decide after you see your result if you wish to spend points. Most gms i have every been around do it where they, even if not outright telling you "YOUR GOING TO DIE or ITS A FLESH WOUND" at least give hinting, such as
"Are you happy with that number"
"are you sure you wish to leave it there"
to give the pc the idea they need to spend CP or bad things will happen. |
But it doesn't sound like you forbid spending more than 2 CPs to lessen the damage when it is not mortal, so it really isn't that the character is in danger of death (most of the time), only that they might be in danger of being wounded or stunned.
| Quote: | | Negative. You can only worsen your health level when using NATURAL healing rules. using a Med pack all you can do is 'over-drive' the body's system and make it so no more can be used for 24 hrs.. |
My bad. Didn't have my rules in front of me. I'm sure I have seen a bad first aid roll increase the damage. Perhaps I saw this in game on a complication for a first aid roll.
But it is still that case that if you are mortally wounded, you need a successful roll to stabilize. This to me is far more life threatening than the majority of "soak" rolls, which in my experience, most of the time are more likely to be wounds that kills. So why not allow spending up to 5 CPs to first aid? What purpose is served by having the character end up with a crappy first aid result? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Against stun or KO gas grenades, glop grenades, stun bolts.. since they are non lethal, i go with 2 max. AND yes i have argued the point with many a gm.
All other forms of injury causing damage, 5d max as per the rules.
| Quote: |
My bad. Didn't have my rules in front of me. I'm sure I have seen a bad first aid roll increase the damage. Perhaps I saw this in game on a complication for a first aid roll. |
I used to have it where if you A) roll 10 less than needed (eg a 5 when you need a 15) AND roll a 1 on the wild while doing it, you worsened the person being med packed.. till i got shown the rules..
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Resurrecting this thread for some of our newer folk..
So you don't have to go back to page one i will restate the full question.
By the rules if YOU act first you have already declared how many actions you are doing. If you get HIT and wounded somehow (like if you attack someone in melee and they used the special force maneuver Power block, or say it was the result of a very poor critical fumble) you lose all remaining actions in the round and get knocked down.
Assuming the Enemy knows (by seeing you still breathing) you are still a threat and he shoots you, Can you dodge? Or since you 'can't act again in the round' is his to hit roll just the base difficulty for weapon range?
Do you have as a HR rules for 'shooting someone prone" like it adds say +5 to the difficulty to hit, +10 at long range etc???
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding with reaction rolls is that you can always add one in if needed, which is why I never "declare" a dodge up front (because it would impose MAPs unnecessarily). A character who is wounded already suffers penalties to all rolls because his physical ability has been compromised. I take this to include the notion of being knocked down or temporarily knocked out for a second or two... wind knocked out of him, or otherwis compromised such that he is not at full functioning capacity. Only time I deny reaction skills is for a character who is incapacitated (which means unable to fight, not coherent enough to participate at all, but possibly still conscious) or worse.
Short answer: no additional penalty for being "knocked prone" as I feel that the damage chart already accounts for this notionally. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have seen around a Dozen pcs who did just that. Pop a FP to medpack themselves.. and 5 still failed. |
Must've been using base technical of 2D because they invested all their starting dice and CPs into blaster and melee combat. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:05 am Post subject: |
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garhkal and his evil GM questions...
According to RAW, even after wounded characters can stand back up the next round, they continue to suffer the wounded penalty until healed, so I feel being prone is a distinct and additional consideration to being just wounded. Incapacitated and mortally wounded characters not only fall prone, but they also fall unconscious so they obviously can't dodge the same round they acquire that wound status. Later when Incapacitated characters become conscious, RAW specifically says they can't use skills which would include dodge.
Wounded and wounded twice characters "fall prone and can take no actions for the rest of the round." Taking no actions would include not being able to stand back up, so they are down for the round. As far as the dodge question, although it doesn't explicitly say "including reactions," I like to apply a dose of common sense. It seems kinda silly to say a character can still dodge while lying on the ground. It also seems silly to say that a prone character, probably wincing in pain from their brand new wound, can even see where all attacks are coming from. So it just doesn't make sense to me for a freshly wounded prone character to be able to use reaction skills in most circumstances.
And yes, a character shooting a prone character from long range would have an additional modifier to the difficulty number for that shot (difficulty based on range and whatever other circumstances). HOWEVER, I must say this is an extremely hypothetical situation for me anyway, because characters just don't shoot at each other when they are down in my game. Even the most vile villains don't do that. I usually run it that in the heat of battle you can't usually even asses if the character you just shot is only wounded or if they will stay down for the count (which we call "I'ed"). You find out if they try to get up the next round.
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