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New Republic TIE Fighter
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamer wrote:
The problem with outside military hardware suppliers is they could boycott you aka stop supplying you with said hardware if things go against you.


Maybe, but that would be bad for business for a company professing to be "neutral" in the battle between the Empire and the Republic. Might give people the idea that they aren't really neutral. Considering that the Republic is their largest potential customer (since the Empire is on the wane), that wouldn't be a smart move. Plus, if they can get the New Republic on board as customers, that means the market opens up to a lot of smaller system defense forces and the like. It's in their interests to play nice.

Besides, even if they were dumb enough to cut them off, TIE fighters (and their associated spare parts) are all over the place in the post-Dark Empire era. Having access to parts that are specifically made for the new fighter would be problematic until the NR could get its own production facilities on line, but since the ship uses stock TIE systems whenever possible, techs could cannibalize needed parts from existing ships until the custom parts become available again.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamer wrote:
The problem with outside military hardware suppliers is they could boycott you aka stop supplying you with said hardware if things go against you.
Yes. As I know from my day job, real governments are very concerned about this. And when they have sufficient political or economic clout and sufficient technical expertise they nearly always go with a local supplier. It's difficult to boycott if your factory is under the dominion of the government you want to boycott. In the real world, the US favors local supply for that exact reason. For many US government contractors a US source of supply is favored and sometimes mandated. And it definitely lessens objections in the House and Senate. Other governments do the same when and if they are able.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Just as a word of caution, I think that's exactly how WEG came up with all the strange stats like the Strike cruiser that you and others have complained about on these forums. Not to say don't do it, just be careful.


That's part of why I post them here. I have set ideas for what I want the craft to be able to do, but its nice to have the input. I know for the R-Wing Stealth Strike Starfighter I downgraded the stats based on suggestions from the forum. Can't remember if I changed any on the Z-Wing, but the input is appreciated.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Gamer wrote:
The problem with outside military hardware suppliers is they could boycott you aka stop supplying you with said hardware if things go against you.
Yes. As I know from my day job, real governments are very concerned about this. And when they have sufficient political or economic clout and sufficient technical expertise they nearly always go with a local supplier. It's difficult to boycott if your factory is under the dominion of the government you want to boycott. In the real world, the US favors local supply for that exact reason. For many US government contractors a US source of supply is favored and sometimes mandated. And it definitely lessens objections in the House and Senate. Other governments do the same when and if they are able.


The problem I see with this argument is that it is based on how things work in our current socio-political setting, yet the New Republic in the post-Dark Empire age is faced with something very different in many aspects. Many of the galaxy's major corporations had sufficient power and influence to be semi-autonomous agencies even under an authoritarian state like the Empire, exercising direct control over entire systems or sectors (The Corporate Sector, Santhe-Sienar and the Tion Sector, KDY and the Kuat System, etc). With the New Republic, a state that is intentionally less controlling, it may be forced to deal with many of these corporations as equal and independent political entities. Even if these independent businesses choose to become members of the New Republic, they would still possess a great deal of political clout
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Gamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem I see with this argument is that it is based on how things work in our current socio-political setting, yet the New Republic in the post-Dark Empire age is faced with something very different in many aspects. Many of the galaxy's major corporations had sufficient power and influence to be semi-autonomous agencies even under an authoritarian state like the Empire, exercising direct control over entire systems or sectors (The Corporate Sector, Santhe-Sienar and the Tion Sector, KDY and the Kuat System, etc). With the New Republic, a state that is intentionally less controlling, it may be forced to deal with many of these corporations as equal and independent political entities. Even if these independent businesses choose to become members of the New Republic, they would still possess a great deal of political clout


Your arguement only greatly reinforces our statements.
If the outside corporations had that much clout to begin with they could boycott you when ever they feel like it.
They don't need a fight between the empire and republic, any policy made by the republic they don't like they can withold support.
Anytime the republic doesn't give into thier concessions they can withold support.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamer wrote:
Your arguement only greatly reinforces our statements.
If the outside corporations had that much clout to begin with they could boycott you when ever they feel like it.
They don't need a fight between the empire and republic, any policy made by the republic they don't like they can withold support.
Anytime the republic doesn't give into thier concessions they can withold support.


Wrong. One of the most profitable times for any business (especially one that manufactures weapons) is during a war. The only place more profitable than selling guns to one side in a war is being able to sell guns to both sides. Even if Sienar isn't actively fomenting the war through their own actions, they certainly wouldn't mind turning a profit, especially when they are profitting from both sides. And I think you are overestimating their clout; after all, with this starfighter in my campaign, Sienar is selling a single product to a military supplied by Incom, Koensayr, Freitek, Mon Calamari Shipyards, SoroSuub, KDY, the Rendili Shipyards, etc. A boycott on the part of one company might hurt, but it certainly wouldn't cripple the New Republic military, but it certainly would lose Santhe-Sienar a lot of the political goodwill they had built up to get the Republic to purchase the starfighters in the first place. Both sides perform a very delicate balancing act; Sienar is autonomous for the most part, but their autonomy is dependent on continued profits, generated by sales from the Santhe-Sienar family of companies (of which Sienar Fleet Systems is one of the most profitable). They may very well have the ability to boycott sales of a product to a customer, but that would be a very extreme approach, and would likely damage their sales and potential sales to one of their largest potential customers (the New Republic) for decades to come. If anything, the Empire would need to be more worried about a TIE fighter embargo, as Sienar is practically their sole supplier.

Wookieepedia wrote:
After the defeat of Grand Admiral Thrawn, the company [Santhe/Sienar Technologies] began supplying vessels to all buyers, including the New Republic.


Need I say more?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Kemper Boyd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Wrong. One of the most profitable times for any business (especially one that manufactures weapons) is during a war. The only place more profitable than selling guns to one side in a war is being able to sell guns to both sides. Even if Sienar isn't actively fomenting the war through their own actions, they certainly wouldn't mind turning a profit, especially when they are profitting from both sides.


Food for thought: In my campaign Santhe/Sienar actually ends up dealing with the separatist Federation of Independent Worlds in the period between Yavin and Endor and when asked, the agent of Lady Santhe says "We like to hedge our bets".
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Gamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wrong. One of the most profitable times for any business (especially one that manufactures weapons) is during a war. The only place more profitable than selling guns to one side in a war is being able to sell guns to both sides. Even if Sienar isn't actively fomenting the war through their own actions, they certainly wouldn't mind turning a profit, especially when they are profitting from both sides. And I think you are overestimating their clout; after all, with this starfighter in my campaign, Sienar is selling a single product to a military supplied by Incom, Koensayr, Freitek, Mon Calamari Shipyards, SoroSuub, KDY, the Rendili Shipyards, etc. A boycott on the part of one company might hurt, but it certainly wouldn't cripple the New Republic military, but it certainly would lose Santhe-Sienar a lot of the political goodwill they had built up to get the Republic to purchase the starfighters in the first place. Both sides perform a very delicate balancing act; Sienar is autonomous for the most part, but their autonomy is dependent on continued profits, generated by sales from the Santhe-Sienar family of companies (of which Sienar Fleet Systems is one of the most profitable). They may very well have the ability to boycott sales of a product to a customer, but that would be a very extreme approach, and would likely damage their sales and potential sales to one of their largest potential customers (the New Republic) for decades to come. If anything, the Empire would need to be more worried about a TIE fighter embargo, as Sienar is practically their sole supplier.

Wookieepedia wrote:
After the defeat of Grand Admiral Thrawn, the company [Santhe/Sienar Technologies] began supplying vessels to all buyers, including the New Republic.


Need I say more?

Don't blame me this is how the real world works and the stupid writers don't know it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gamer wrote:
Don't blame me this is how the real world works and the stupid writers don't know it.


The one constant about the SWU is that the rules of the real world do not necessarily apply.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneil wrote:
Wookieepedia wrote:
After the defeat of Grand Admiral Thrawn, the company [Santhe/Sienar Technologies] began supplying vessels to all buyers, including the New Republic.


Need I say more?
Well "vessels" <> refurbished TIE fighters.

Since those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, it is certainly possible that a corrupt or ignorant NR could buy from Sienar - a company that was actually created by Palpatine as a support for his military machine after dissolving Republic Sienar Systems. One reason RSS was dissolved was that it had sold ships to the Separatists.

Since I am not playing in a New Republic timeframe the question is academic as far as my gaming goes. I guess being optimistic where SW is concerned I had hoped the NR would not start immediately repeating the failures of the Old Republic. But I can see the appeal for those who want a darker more jaded setting to their SW New Republic.


Last edited by Bren on Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Since those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, it is certainly possible that a corrupt or ignorant NR could buy from Sienar - a company that was actually created by Palpatine as a support for his military machine after dissolving Republic Sienar Systems. One reason RSS was dissolved was that it had sold ships to the Separatists.

Since I am not playing in a New Republic timeframe the question is academic as far as my gaming goes. I guess being optimistic where SW is concerned I had hoped the NR would not start immediately repeating the failures of the Old Republic. But I can see the appeal for those who want a darker more jaded setting to their SW New Republic.


By that standard, the Republic would never have signed a treaty with the Imperial Remnant at the end of the Hand of Thrawn duology, all because of the crimes that the Empire had committed in the past. Governments tend to make pragmatic decisions based on the present and the future, not necessarily the past. If this were not true, there would be a lot fewer German and Japanese cars on the roads of America today.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
By that standard, the Republic would never have signed a treaty with the Imperial Remnant at the end of the Hand of Thrawn duology, all because of the crimes that the Empire had committed in the past. Governments tend to make pragmatic decisions based on the present and the future, not necessarily the past. If this were not true, there would be a lot fewer German and Japanese cars on the roads of America today.
Regarding the peace treaty, I wouldn't make too much of that. From a canon standpoint, the novelization of RotS shows that Padme and other senators are very surprised at Palpatine's unwillingness to end the Clone Wars by signing any kind peace treaty. His insistence on ending the war with the unconditional surrender of the Separatists indicates that the SW universe is like much of European history in that wars end with a peace treaty on terms rather than by the unconditional surrender of one of the belligerents. So we should not be surprised that the New Republic, consciously harkening back to earlier days and ideals would do likewise. Especially since membership in the New Republic is voluntary in the EU and the treaty occurs after it has become clear through a number of novels that there are planets that prefer retaining their Imperial government to joining the NR. From a noncanon standpoint - our campaign is now 3 months after the Battle of Yavin and none of those things have occurred. Though the irony of justifying non-canon decisions via canon seems amusing to me.

Just what year are you setting these New Republic TIE contracts in?

Rebuilding the German and Japanese economies was a bit unusual for a victor and was likely a mix of Amereican idealism and a pragmatic desire to create a strong bulwark against the perceived threat of communism while attempting to avoid creating the sort of grievances that the indemnifications in the Treaty of Versaille provided as fodder for Nazi propaganda and that helped lead to German people into WWII.

That being said, the Allies enforced a peace somewhat to their liking and advantage and 66 years after the war ended, the Allies still maintain military forces on both German and Japanese soil. WWII started 21 years after the end of the first World War. The Allies actions in rebuilding and demilitarization of the defeated nations has avoided another world war for over three times as long. So maybe they did something right.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Though the irony of justifying non-canon decisions via canon seems amusing to me.


True. It does give one hope that at least some of the authors of the EU are paying attention.

Quote:
Just what year are you setting these New Republic TIE contracts in?


Roughly around the time of the Black Fleet Crisis, concurrent with the construction of the new class of vessels that made up the Fifth Fleet, as well as the K-Wing. Before that, IMC, the Alliance fleet used Clone Wars era V-Wing fighters for fleet defense.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Bren wrote:
Though the irony of justifying non-canon decisions via canon seems amusing to me.


True. It does give one hope that at least some of the authors of the EU are paying attention.
Hope springs eternal. Wink Don't hold your breath though. Practically speaking I suspect paying for a new roof on the garage by finishing the story is more important to most authors than a strict adherence to consistency in an already inconsistent universe.
Quote:
Quote:
Just what year are you setting these New Republic TIE contracts in?
Roughly around the time of the Black Fleet Crisis, concurrent with the construction of the new class of vessels that made up the Fifth Fleet, as well as the K-Wing. Before that, IMC, the Alliance fleet used Clone Wars era V-Wing fighters for fleet defense.
That is pretty late from my POV and later is better. In our campaign, the Sector Rebel forces do use some captured TIE fighters for local defense or fleet defense. They aren't happy about it, but cheap, crappy fighters is better than no fighters.

The Sector forces in our House Campaign are a mix of planetary forces from a two sector group call the Union. Union forces are a mix of existing planetary forces from member worlds, volunteers (mostly from member worlds) organized into planetary volunteer units, and volunteers in a Union force that is not specific to a particular planet. The Union military does not use TIEs. Two of the member world volunteer forces do. Both member worlds repaint their TIEs - one to enhance visual recognition the other in a camouflage pattern to make the TIEs harder to spot by the mark I eyeball.


Last edited by Bren on Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Hope springs eternal. :wink: Don't hold your breath though. Practically speaking I suspect paying for a new roof on the garage by finishing the story is more important to most authors than a strict adherence to consistency in an already inconsistent universe.


True. Still, if I were to hang my hopes on just one author, Tim Zahn would be it.


Quote:
That is pretty late from my POV and later is better. In our campaign, the Sector Rebel forces do use some captured TIE fighters for local defense or fleet defense. They aren't happy about it, but cheap, crappy fighters is better than no fighters.


Yeah, when we play in the pre-Endor era, the technology mix tends to be much more patchwork, with modern Alliance fighters mixed with captured TIEs, Clone Wars era V-Wings, ARC-170's and Eta-2's and the like. Ten years in the future, when the Alliance has become the Republic, things get a bit more homogenized.

Quote:
The Sector forces in our House Campaign are a mix of planetary forces from a two sector group call the Union. Union forces are a mix of existing planetary forces from member worlds, volunteers (mostly from member worlds) organized into planetary volunteer units, and volunteers in a Union force that is not specific to a particular planet. The Union military does not use TIEs. Two of the member world volunteer forces do. Both member worlds repaint their TIEs - one to enhance visual recognition the other in a camouflage pattern to make the TIEs harder to spot by the mark I eyeball.


By House Campaign, are you referring to the Lords of the Expanse?
_________________
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