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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:41 am Post subject: Fixing Danger Sense |
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This topic stems from Garhkal's 2 New Force Powers post. The idea there is that a character may sense when another person is in danger, and the degree to which that person is in danger depending on how well they rolled. IMO, that version is a better fit to how Danger Sense is portrayed in the films and novels, where characters sense danger, but not necessarily the source, and while they usually ultimately detect the source, it is usually just in time to be able to react to it.
The RAW for Danger Sense, however, takes a very black-and-white approach. Either the character succeeds on a Moderate roll and knows exactly what the danger is and where it is coming from (automatically winning initiative, for all intents and purposes), or they fail the roll and know absolutely nothing.
| garhkal wrote: | Beating the sense difficulty by 0-4 just tells the Jedi Danger is coming, and which general direction (fore quarter, rear quarter, left quarter or right quarter)
5-8, narrows the direction, and gives a generalized sense of distance (melee, short range, medium range etc)
9-12 gives the exact direction, a better grasp of range (for non melee) and general type of attack (blaster, slugthrower, grenade or other explosive)
13-16 gives more info on type (pistol, rifle or other for blaster for example)
17+ gives exact info. |
IMO, this is an excellent starting place for what Danger Sense should look like, but IMO, it needs more detail, specifically how the success affects Initiative and/or Reaction rolls.
Some thoughts:
1). Danger Sense should have a base difficulty of either Easy or Very Easy, at which level the adept senses danger, but nothing else. The degree of information he gains through the insight of Danger Sense will be directly proportional to the number by which he beat the base difficulty.
2). Danger Sense should also be able to sense danger to others, simply by applying the Relationship and Proximity modifiers.
3). Rather than a simple binary choice as presented in the RAW, a successful Danger Sense roll should apply a modifier to pertinent reaction rolls depending on how well the roll succeeded, like so:
Sense Difficulty beaten by:
1-4 = Jedi has a sense of danger, but no idea of the source. He may roll Search or Perception at -4D to spot the source of danger,; on success, he may roll Initiative at -1D for the next round, but is Surprised if he fails.
5-8 = Jedi can tell the general direction of danger, but no more specific than which fire arc. He may roll Search or Perception at -2D to spot source of danger; on success, he may roll Initiative normally, but is Surprised if he fails.
9-12 = Jedi can detect a specific direction, as well as a general sense of range (melee, short range, medium range, etc). He may make a normal Search or Perception roll to identify the source of the danger; on success, he rolls Initiative at +1D, but is Surprised if he fails.
13-16 = Jedi can identify the exact direction, a better grasp of range (for non melee) and general type of attack (blaster, slugthrower, grenade or other explosive). He may make a Search or Perception roll at +2D to spot the source of the danger; on success, he rolls Initiative at +2D, but is Surprised if he fails.
17+ = The Jedi can identify exact information on all aspects of the attack. He automatically wins Initiative for the next round, and all other characters must declare their actions before him, after which he may choose when and how to act.
Note: Rather than trying to make a Perception / Search roll to ID the threat to himself, a Jedi could conceivably just bring up Lightsaber Combat, which has its own rules for FS-characters automatically winning initiative. However, that power has little use when detecting when others are endangered.
Input appreciated.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Well, it feels a little clunky for now. That, however, may be your preference (lots of detail and specifics).
The way we use danger sense in our games is to allow the attacker a sneak roll (assuming he's trying to surprise the Jedi). The Jedi (assuming he HAS danger sense) is entitled to his sense roll (a passive use of the power which we sometimes modify by proximity... for example, against a sniper). If he wins, he detects the attacker and the nature of the attack and may immediately choose how to act (which is often a preemptive strike a la Obi-Wan cantina style, or like Yoda against the clones).
As for detecting danger to others, this is perfectly fine. Anakin and Obi-Wan detected the danger to Padme in Ep2 when she went to bed.
The reason we allow a sneak roll is because it falls under perception, which is how non Force sensitives resist Force based effects. It also helps to explain some things like why Anakin and Obi-Wan did not detect Jango before he shot what's-her-face (changeling), or possibly why Darth Maul was caught off guard right before getting chopped in half (that one's kinda iffy, though).
If the danger is not coming from a conscious source (say, a meteor is about to land on his head) then he just rolls against the moderate difficulty and he gets a general sense of how to react (duck, move, jump etc). Once he chooses how he will respond to the threat, he rolls the appropriate skill and hopes for the best. Of course, the GM will use discretion here: if he rolls way high, the GM might say: "jump 8.4 feet to your 11 o'clock." or something. If he just barely makes it, the GM might say: "get out of the way." |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Fixing Danger Sense |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | This topic stems from Garhkal's |
Thanks..
| Quote: |
1). Danger Sense should have a base difficulty of either Easy or Very Easy, at which level the adept senses danger, but nothing else. The degree of information he gains through the insight of Danger Sense will be directly proportional to the number by which he beat the base difficulty.
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May i ask why you are trying to set the base lower than normal??
| Quote: |
2). Danger Sense should also be able to sense danger to others, simply by applying the Relationship and Proximity modifiers. |
I disagree. We already see how the force regards others, with Control pain/Control anothers pain and Accelerate healing/accelerate anothers healing. So why wouldn't danger sense be the same.
| Quote: | | The way we use danger sense in our games is to allow the attacker a sneak roll (assuming he's trying to surprise the Jedi). The Jedi (assuming he HAS danger sense) is entitled to his sense roll (a passive use of the power which we sometimes modify by proximity... for example, against a sniper). If he wins, he detects the attacker and the nature of the attack and may immediately choose how to act (which is often a preemptive strike a la Obi-Wan cantina style, or like Yoda against the clones). |
So he is not specifying he wants to roll, it is automatic?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Fixing Danger Sense |
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| garhkal wrote: |
So he is not specifying he wants to roll, it is automatic? |
Correct. Danger sense, in our games, is constantly active. No need to have it "up" in order to benefit. It just doesn't make sense to us, based on what we see in the films.
As far as the "another" powers go, it's fairly easy to justify control being a part of the power since the prerequisite is a control based power. Danger sense, however, is simply a matter of perceiving what is happening (or about to happen) via the Force. The actual beneficiary is not really participating in the use of the power, nor are they materially involved with the developing events.
Life sense or "Sense another's condition" as it could easily be called, does not require a control roll, most likely because there's no need to harness your own power in order to detect your quarry. In the case of danger sense, the quarry is simply danger. The proximity modifier is simple enough to understand. The relationship modifier seems like it could be appropriate or not, however, I tend to agree that it should be included as an indicator of how much the Jedi cares about the person in danger. The more they care, the more sensitive they'll be to a threat against that person. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Well, it feels a little clunky for now. That, however, may be your preference (lots of detail and specifics). |
It's not. I pretty much just came up with a random idea of how the Danger Sense roll might affect dice rolls as a way to start conversation and solicit suggestions. I'm completely open to ideas that may streamline the concept.
| Quote: | | The way we use danger sense in our games is to allow the attacker a sneak roll (assuming he's trying to surprise the Jedi). The Jedi (assuming he HAS danger sense) is entitled to his sense roll (a passive use of the power which we sometimes modify by proximity... for example, against a sniper). If he wins, he detects the attacker and the nature of the attack and may immediately choose how to act (which is often a preemptive strike a la Obi-Wan cantina style, or like Yoda against the clones). |
The problem I have with a Sneak roll being opposed to Danger Sense is that, in the novels and films, the sense of danger appears entirely extra-sensory, in that it is a premonition from the Force, almost an instinctive form of seeing the immediate future because that future affects the Jedi so directly. Sneak may work just fine against detection via the physical senses, but it can't hide a person from the flow of time itself. While I don't agree with the way the RAW presents Danger Sense, I do think they have it right in that another Force user may use their Control dice to oppose a Danger Sense roll.
| Quote: | | The reason we allow a sneak roll is because it falls under perception, which is how non Force sensitives resist Force based effects. |
I've mentioned before that I have a problem with Perception as a default attribute for non-FS to resist Force powers, as it isn't an exact fit. And even if that wasn't the case, I agree with the RAW when it says that the only way to counter a Danger Sense roll is for another FS to roll his Control to oppose it.
| Quote: | | If the danger is not coming from a conscious source (say, a meteor is about to land on his head) then he just rolls against the moderate difficulty and he gets a general sense of how to react (duck, move, jump etc). Once he chooses how he will respond to the threat, he rolls the appropriate skill and hopes for the best. Of course, the GM will use discretion here: if he rolls way high, the GM might say: "jump 8.4 feet to your 11 o'clock." or something. If he just barely makes it, the GM might say: "get out of the way." |
My interpretation of Danger Sense allows it to work either way, since the premonition of the threat is coming from a Jed's ability to see visions of the future. I think the premonition from Danger Sense is entirely extra-sensory via the Force, and that the only way to oppose or block that sense is through the Force.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Fixing Danger Sense |
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| garhkal wrote: | | May i ask why you are trying to set the base lower than normal?? |
Because I'm also chopping the level of information the Jedi receives from success. In the Danger Sense RAW, the character has to beat a Moderate difficulty, but is practically omniscient upon success. I'm setting the bar lower, but also lowering the payoff at that lower difficulty level. The Jedi may be able to sense danger at Very Easy Difficulty, but all that he will know is that there is a danger, nothing more than that. Only at higher levels will he have the insight necessary to match the insight given by the RAW.
Maybe a better approach would be fewer steps, so that, say, on a Easy difficulty roll, a Jedi is aware of a threat (even if he doesn't know the details), and may roll initiative normally, even if he would otherwise be surprised. The RAW version of Danger Sense wouldn't kick in until he beat, say, a Difficult or Very Difficult roll...
| Quote: | | I disagree. We already see how the force regards others, with Control pain/Control anothers pain and Accelerate healing/accelerate anothers healing. So why wouldn't danger sense be the same. |
The distinction there is that all of the "Control Another's [fill-in-the-blank]" powers are all Control based powers that the Jedi knows how to perform on himself, and only on himself. Sense is more about sensing the world around the Jedi. If he can sense the presence of other life, read others' thoughts and so on and so forth, I don't see why he should be able to sense when others are in danger, especially when those in danger are involved in his life and/or in close physical proximity to him.
I've got a pretty good idea of how I perceive Danger Sense, but I always have difficulty putting it into words...
In essence, I think Jedi are instinctively precognitive, that they can sense major events in their lives on an instinctive level, and that their Sense dice levels are a representation of how well they have attuned themselves to trust those instincts, those "feelings". Danger Sense is a facet of that precognition, in that they sense those impending major events, such as an imminent threat to themselves, or to someone close to them, or even just to someone nearby. Such a power is directly related to the flow of time itself, and can only be countered by others who also have that power. No matter how stealthy someone may be in the physical world, they can't hide from time, or from someone who can sense what is going to happen before it happens.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| You make a good point about why sneak should not oppose danger senae. In my case this is one of the rare times where I will forgo "logic" in favor of game balance. I feel that allowing the sneak roll to oppose danger sense makes the game more fun since the information gained from danger sense is essentially free. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
The problem I have with a Sneak roll being opposed to Danger Sense is that, in the novels and films, the sense of danger appears entirely extra-sensory, in that it is a premonition from the Force, almost an instinctive form of seeing the immediate future because that future affects the Jedi so directly. Sneak may work just fine against detection via the physical senses, but it can't hide a person from the flow of time itself. While I don't agree with the way the RAW presents Danger Sense, I do think they have it right in that another Force user may use their Control dice to oppose a Danger Sense roll. |
I agree, although I do think there should be some mechanism for a non-user to oppose a danger sense roll. Maybe via Con or Willpower...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I agree, although I do think there should be some mechanism for a non-user to oppose a danger sense roll. Maybe via Con or Willpower... |
I think you're right, but I also don't think that that mechanism should be readily available to everyone. I can see it as a Willpower specialization or Advanced skill that allows a non-FS character to think or act in such a way as to make themselves less noticeable to Force-based senses, but it would have to be taught to the non-FS by either an actual FS or some other source with a very good backstory reason for why they know this skill.
For actual game rules, I would suggest something like an Advanced skill, but rather than stacking the Advanced skill dice to Willpower to resist, the (A) skill dice would stand alone and be added to the difficulty of an FS to detect with powers like Danger Sense.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: |
The problem I have with a Sneak roll being opposed to Danger Sense is that, in the novels and films, the sense of danger appears entirely extra-sensory, in that it is a premonition from the Force, almost an instinctive form of seeing the immediate future because that future affects the Jedi so directly. Sneak may work just fine against detection via the physical senses, but it can't hide a person from the flow of time itself. While I don't agree with the way the RAW presents Danger Sense, I do think they have it right in that another Force user may use their Control dice to oppose a Danger Sense roll. |
I agree, although I do think there should be some mechanism for a non-user to oppose a danger sense roll. Maybe via Con or Willpower... |
Agreed. Otherwise you will never have jedi get surprised by anyone who is also not a jedi.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | I agree, although I do think there should be some mechanism for a non-user to oppose a danger sense roll. Maybe via Con or Willpower... |
I think you're right, but I also don't think that that mechanism should be readily available to everyone. I can see it as a Willpower specialization or Advanced skill that allows a non-FS character to think or act in such a way as to make themselves less noticeable to Force-based senses, but it would have to be taught to the non-FS by either an actual FS or some other source with a very good backstory reason for why they know this skill.
For actual game rules, I would suggest something like an Advanced skill, but rather than stacking the Advanced skill dice to Willpower to resist, the (A) skill dice would stand alone and be added to the difficulty of an FS to detect with powers like Danger Sense. |
I can get behind that. I'd just say you need to understand how Jedi sense danger to use it, and the teacher could just be one who already understands it. (Kind of like how you need to know that an infra-red camera can see your body heat before you can come up with a way to fool it.)
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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(A) Discipline
Prerequisites: Willpower 6D
Description: This skill applies specific mental training and techniques to allow a non-Force Sensitive character to partially obscure their presence in the Force. A character trained in Discipline learns to quiet their active thought processes and make spur-of-the-moment combat decisions to counter Force abilities like Danger Sense, Life Sense, Life Detection, and even Farseeing. Learning this skill requires intensive training, and must be learned from an instructor (An Instructor must have a minimum skill of Discipline 4D or Control and Sense at 4D each).
Game Use: Discipline is improved at double cost, as with any other Advanced skill, but it is not stacked with Willpower for skill rolls. Instead, the Discipline adept must make a Difficult Willpower roll to bring the skill into play, plus a Moderate Willpower roll in each subsequent round to keep the skill up. On a successful Willpower roll, the Discipline adept may then add his Discipline skill dice to the Difficulty of any Force skill being used to detect him or otherwise alert a Force User to his presence.
Thoughts?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still looking for input on my graduated scale of Danger Sense information, too...
EDIT: Ideally, I'd like to have some sort of scale where the Jedi is completely oblivious to danger at one end, and omnipotently aware on the other (as per the RAW), with one or more steps in between where the Jedi is somewhat aware and may react normally (or with appropriate penalties) when he should have been Surprised.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I went back and re-read the rules for Surprise and did a little thinking. Now, according to the RAW, Danger Sense is primarily used to counter sneak attacks, and by extension it generally gives the Jedi an advantage on initiative (even though the RAW isn't clear on this at all).
Now, just as a refresher, Surprise is decided by a Sneak vs. Search / Perception roll. It's possible that a Jedi could use his Sense skill in place of the Search roll, but no rules are provided for that in the RAW. Initiative, on the other hand, is decided by everyone rolling Perception to see who gets the highest (This concludes this session of Star Wars D6 for Dummies).
Here's what I'm thinking; rather than Danger Sense providing a simple on/off result, it should provide a bonus to either Search/Perception on Surprise rolls, or to Perception on initiative rolls, depending on the situation. The bonus would be dependent on how well the character rolls on Danger Sense. I would say a base difficulty of Easy is where the bonuses start, and that any roll below indicates that the Jedi senses danger but brushes it off as "nerves" or "superstition".
For accuracy, the bonus would need to apply in three different categories: 1) Surprise, 2) Initiative and 3) Subtle Threats. The first two I already mentioned, but the third is a bit more complex. There would need to be rules for the Jedi to be aware of threats to which normal human senses aren't usually attuned, such as timed or remote detonated explosives, poison gas attacks, falling meteorites, etc, as well as for attacks that may require multiple rounds or actions to avoid (for instance, if a Jedi happened to be in the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11th, I think Danger Sense would've given him a gradually increasing sense of forboding, and the realization that he really should be somewhere else). I think Garhkal's result chart that I quoted in the initial post would be a good fit for this, while Surprise and Initiative rolls could be easily handled by graduated dice bonuses applied to the appropriate skills. I'm going to put some work into this today and see what I can come up with.
Bear in mind that any system like this will still have Jedi pretty much automatically winning certain rolls, as they would with Danger Sense, but it also introduces the possibility of failure, in the form of low rolls and Wild Dice results. More powerful Jedi would still be well out of reach, but lower level Jedi (like most PCs) would be more vulnerable, and thus more balanced, as well as having Danger Sense function in a manner similar to how it is portrayed in the films and novels.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hows about for the initiative pluses, it goes
0-4 over +2
5-8 over +1d
9-12 over +1d+1
13-16 over +1d+2
17-20 over +2d
21-24 over +2d+1
25-28 over +2d+2
29 or more over +3d
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