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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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As for powers that we all like, the list looks like this so far:
Warp Matter
Alter Temperature
Force Push
Remote Control/Manipulation
Telekinetic Barrier
Force Light / Illumination
Sunder
Did I miss any that made the cut under general consensus? Even just adding these six really seems to open up the doors to more diverse Jedi PCs.
Last edited by Naaman on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: |
I know you don't care for my opinion, but...
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Actually, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I welcome all the input anyone cares to give. I may disagree in the end, but if I didn't want the feedback, I wouldn't post on a public forum. Believe me, counterpoints are the main reason I post up my ideas: I like to get them as refined as possible so that I can come to a solid conclusion.
For what it's worth, I agree that invisibility is outside the realm of typical Star Wars. However, I remain unconvinced that it should be prohibited in a game, especially if the GM is both clever and careful about how he introduces it into his campaign.
When we have characters like the Emperor who can achieve immortality (albeit in a round about sort of way) and the Dark Woman who can walk through walls, it seems only reasonable that the PCs should be able to gain powers that make them unique. Now, learning a power like phase or teleportation could be the objective of a whole campaign or at least the majority of it. Invisibility, in my opinion, is not nearly on the level of powers like teleportation or phase, but if the PCs work for it and are willing to dump a load of CPs into achieving it over the course of many sessions, why not let them have it?
Last edited by Naaman on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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There's the grenade defense converted power.
| Quote: | Grenade Defense.
Alter Difficulty: Easy plus attacking missile weapons or grenade roll.
Required Powers: Danger Sense, Life Detection, Combat Sense, Telekinesis.
Effect: This power allows the Force user to stretch out through the force to telekinetically defend himself against an incoming grenade. When an opponent makes an attack with a missile weapon or grenade, the Force user reaches out with his power and attempts to knock the explosive off of its intended course. In game terms, grenade defense allows a Force user to use his alter roll against an attacker's grenades or missile weapons roll as a reaction skill. This differs from telekinesis as telekinesis cannot be used as an reaction skill. Once an attacking character makes a grenade or missile weapons skill roll, the gamemaster adds that number to an Easy difficulty to determine the difficulty number for the alter roll. If the Force user's roll is successful, then the grenade is deflected off course. The gamemaster may use the grenade scatter diagram to determin its new path. If the character beats the difficulty by 10 or more, then the grenade or missile is directed back at the attacker. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | There's the grenade defense converted power.
| Quote: | Grenade Defense.
Alter Difficulty: Easy plus attacking missile weapons or grenade roll.
Required Powers: Danger Sense, Life Detection, Combat Sense, Telekinesis.
Effect: This power allows the Force user to stretch out through the force to telekinetically defend himself against an incoming grenade. When an opponent makes an attack with a missile weapon or grenade, the Force user reaches out with his power and attempts to knock the explosive off of its intended course. In game terms, grenade defense allows a Force user to use his alter roll against an attacker's grenades or missile weapons roll as a reaction skill. This differs from telekinesis as telekinesis cannot be used as an reaction skill. Once an attacking character makes a grenade or missile weapons skill roll, the gamemaster adds that number to an Easy difficulty to determine the difficulty number for the alter roll. If the Force user's roll is successful, then the grenade is deflected off course. The gamemaster may use the grenade scatter diagram to determin its new path. If the character beats the difficulty by 10 or more, then the grenade or missile is directed back at the attacker. |
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Yeah, I came across that power a little bit ago... what I don't get is why it's even a power. Reading it seems to reveal that it's just telekinesis under a new name. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| It's a reaction specific telekinesis. I think the power is worthwhile, especially with the lacking of alter only powers. The same could be said for "Force Push" too. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, you're right, although I like Force push as a separate power simply for the reason that it deals damage in addition to knocking over the target, kind of like a bulldozer effect that the traditional use of telekinesis wouldn't cover.
Maybe it's just the name of the power that bothers me: "grenade defense" seems a little too narrowly focused for an application that could be used for anything (falling rocks, thrown knives, etc). Is "grenade defense" what Yoda used against Dooku when he tried to bring the ceiling down on him? After all, it was a "reactionary" use of telekinesis. |
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Matthias777
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Grenade Defense.
Alter Difficulty: Easy plus attacking missile weapons or grenade roll.
Required Powers: Danger Sense, Life Detection, Combat Sense, Telekinesis.
Effect: This power allows the Force user to stretch out through the force to telekinetically defend himself against an incoming grenade. When an opponent makes an attack with a missile weapon or grenade, the Force user reaches out with his power and attempts to knock the explosive off of its intended course. In game terms, grenade defense allows a Force user to use his alter roll against an attacker's grenades or missile weapons roll as a reaction skill. This differs from telekinesis as telekinesis cannot be used as an reaction skill. Once an attacking character makes a grenade or missile weapons skill roll, the gamemaster adds that number to an Easy difficulty to determine the difficulty number for the alter roll. If the Force user's roll is successful, then the grenade is deflected off course. The gamemaster may use the grenade scatter diagram to determin its new path. If the character beats the difficulty by 10 or more, then the grenade or missile is directed back at the attacker. |
Hmmm...why can't Telekinesis be used as a reaction skill? I never thought that was the case. I guess, technically, in the power description for Telekinesis, it doesn't specifically outline an example for using the power as a reaction skill, but I don't know of any GMs that would tell a player "No, you can't attempt that, you can only Dodge the grenade" if they were playing a Jedi character and wanted to deflect a grenade (or anything else) with the Force using Telekinesis.
What about a power that would contain an explosion? Say there's a grenade or some detonite, and you want to use the Force to protect you and yours from the blast. Instead a full-size explosion, there's a nice, pretty little ball of explody-ness. Alter vs. Damage means that the character would have to be a pretty awesome Force-user to do it successfully without using Character Points (minimum) or a Force Point (more likely), so it's not going to be an overpowering...power.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I agree. The idea that Telekinesis can't be used as a reaction skill is based off a listing of reaction skills in the 2R&E rulebook (pages 89-90). Because TK isn't on that list, ergo it can't be used as a reaction skill. Personally, I prefer the quotes on page 69: "You only have to use the rules you want to use", and "It's expected that you'll make up new rules to suit the needs of your game".
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mind it, other than the 'easy plus to hit roll' aspect..
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. I run it as regular telekinesis needing a +10 over the attack roll. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Warp Matter
Alter Temperature
Force Push
Remote Control/Manipulation
Telekinetic Barrier |
Your whole list could be boiled down to specializations of telekinesis. Why have a separate power for each of those special TK abilities but not a defensive version similar to the Barrier, but used in a very specific manner?
Most specifically, Warp Matter is in a sense the Oxygen Bottle training exercise that's in GG9: Fragments of the Rim. If one were able to selectively allow only certain types of molecules to enter into a bottle, why couldn't the physical structure of an object be altered or warped using telekinesis?
Force push is obvious, despite your initial differentiating of a damaging attack.
Remote Control/Manipulation is just a fine motor use of Telekinesis.
Telekinetic Barrier is still just using Telekinesis to stop objects from hitting you.
My only point that I'm trying to make is that if you're going to make an exception to one usage of TK, then you might as well extend that to any other possible application. And, if you're willing to make that leniency, then you really shouldn't be on the lookout for a longer list of alter powers.
I apologize if this is coming across as a lecture. I see Grenade Defense, Force Push, TK Barrier and all of these as a different flexing of the same basic knowledge covered by Telekinesis. To me, it's the same thing as a Jedi who has the Life Detection power, but not Life Sense. So, even though the character may be able to sense all life forms within 10m of him, he can't sense specifically where his friend is 100m away, even though technically one could assume that both of the powers represent the same basic theory in force usage. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I definitely see where you're coming from. I think my biggest quibble is with the name "grenade defense." "Deflect object" or something more generic seems more appropriate.
With regard to the progression from life detection to life sense, the latter is just an extension of the former (much like what you're saying about this list of alter powers), however, the application IS different (which is exactly why we need more powers; I think this example only illustrates that it IS worth making more powers). With "grenade defense" you're simply using the standard telekinesis power under a new name; it would be much simpler to include TK in the list of reaction skills. Does that make sense?
With Force push, you're telekinetically shoving an indiscriminate area. Using standard telekinesis, the difficulty would be much higher than for a new power with that specific focus.
Life sense allows you to search for someone specific and determine his state of health. Life detection is just a radar effect
I think that lumping warp matter in with telekinesis is a bit of a stretch, since the power doesn't necessarily relocate the object. It rather changes the state of the matter.
And for what it's worth, there are more powers in this thread that are not on the list that are unrelated to telekinesis. However, the general consensus on this forum is that TK (or variations thereof) are the only acceptable uses for the Alter skill. A point that I happen to disagree with... which is what inspired me to start this thread. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Most specifically, Warp Matter is in a sense the Oxygen Bottle training exercise that's in GG9: Fragments of the Rim. If one were able to selectively allow only certain types of molecules to enter into a bottle, why couldn't the physical structure of an object be altered or warped using telekinesis? |
If you read the fine print on that in GG9, you will see that the Jedi needs Alter to remove all the air from the bottle, but he requires a Sense roll to filter out everything but the oxygen molecules. With regards to Warp Matter, I'm on the fence. I suppose, if the Jedi can perceive what he wishes to alter, be that solid, liquid or gas, he wouldn't necessarily require the Sense roll...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
Your whole list could be boiled down to specializations of telekinesis. Why have a separate power for each of those special TK abilities but not a defensive version similar to the Barrier, but used in a very specific manner?
Most specifically, Warp Matter is in a sense the Oxygen Bottle training exercise that's in GG9: Fragments of the Rim. If one were able to selectively allow only certain types of molecules to enter into a bottle, why couldn't the physical structure of an object be altered or warped using telekinesis?
Force push is obvious, despite your initial differentiating of a damaging attack.
Remote Control/Manipulation is just a fine motor use of Telekinesis.
Telekinetic Barrier is still just using Telekinesis to stop objects from hitting you.
My only point that I'm trying to make is that if you're going to make an exception to one usage of TK, then you might as well extend that to any other possible application. And, if you're willing to make that leniency, then you really shouldn't be on the lookout for a longer list of alter powers.
I apologize if this is coming across as a lecture. I see Grenade Defense, Force Push, TK Barrier and all of these as a different flexing of the same basic knowledge covered by Telekinesis. To me, it's the same thing as a Jedi who has the Life Detection power, but not Life Sense. So, even though the character may be able to sense all life forms within 10m of him, he can't sense specifically where his friend is 100m away, even though technically one could assume that both of the powers represent the same basic theory in force usage. |
I fail to see how warp matter has anything to do with filtering oxygen in a bottle.
Warp matter, in a sense, allows the Jedi to treat matter as if it were paly-dough. He can also harden or soften it as he sees fit.
Some examples of the way that I've used warp matter in a game are:
To poke a hole in a door to create a peep hole.
To escape from binders.
To create hand and foot holds to climb a cliff (as my character gripped the surface, she molded it to fit in her hand or for her foot to step on).
There are lots of ways to use it that have nothing to do with TK.
I also would not interpret a temperature altering power to be an extension of telekinesis. Especially if the source of the new temperature is the "Force." If we're going to go so far as to say that warp matter and alter temperature are variations of telekinesis because there COULD be a physics-related explanation to them, then you might as well say that projective telepathy requires TK in order to manipulate radio waves to carry a specific piece of information and direct them into a person's mind, and then telekinetically stimulate their brain to be able to interpret the radio waves. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | I also would not interpret a temperature altering power to be an extension of telekinesis. |
Well I suppose you could use telekinesis to speed up or slow down the movement of a lot of individual molecules which would effectively alter the temperature, but personally I prefer treating alter temperature as a separate skill.
Deforming a substance as if it were clay seems like a very different power than telekinesis to me. |
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