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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: Completely removed lightsaber combat |
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I recently just did this, and honestly I've had a lot of success with it.
I removed lightsaber combat, upped lightsaber damage to 10D(Can vary with crystals, and Design), and then made combat sense +2D to all combat abilities. I also made it that a Jedi automatically gets +1D when deflecting blaster bolts with a lightsaber.
With all this combined, I made the Jedi still deadly, able to fight and block, but also have to think tactically how to move and go about everything. Also going back to the whole the force is what makes the Jedi truly powerful.
So if someone wants to go a Boba Fett route, they can actually go toe-to-toe with a Jedi in the physical sense. Though the Jedi will still have a bit of an advantage if they train their lightsaber skill, and have combat sense.
What do you all think? |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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So anyone with a lightsaber Jedi or not does 10D damage?
That does seem a bit much to me.
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Essentially, I never really understood why control added to damage. Well from a game play perceptive I do, but not from a canon or story way.
Whether in the hands of a learner or Darth Vader, a lightsaber still cuts through almost anything.
I also don't allow anyone but Force Sensitives to have lightsabers.
I will note 10D is the number I have just started using and so far seemed to work out. When you think about Vader has 11D Control.
That plus his lightsaber(5D) is 16D. So I actually make it less powerful for the big force users, but more powerful for the less powerful. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | Essentially, I never really understood why control added to damage. Well from a game play perceptive I do, but not from a canon or story way.
Whether in the hands of a learner or Darth Vader, a lightsaber still cuts through almost anything.
I also don't allow anyone but Force Sensitives to have lightsabers.
I will note 10D is the number I have just started using and so far seemed to work out. When you think about Vader has 11D Control.
That plus his lightsaber(5D) is 16D. So I actually make it less powerful for the big force users, but more powerful for the less powerful. |
I think its from a 'balance' point of view. Its meant to make lightsabers less effective in the hands of non-jedis.
Im thinking of raising the damage to 8D and only have 1pip per full D in Control as a bonus. But removing the damage bonus alltogether is also a possible solution.
Im also trying to find a balance for Jedis, where they can be challenged by very experienced opponents, but perhaps not go back to the 1st Ed weaklings...
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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The challenge is we have Monsters like Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker(After Jedi) and having to balance that with 0D+1 Force Sensitive players.
I fix the problem of lightsabers of non-force user as I won't allow someone to have them unless they are Force Sensitive. Not the whole, someone dropped a lightsaber and someone picked it up then happened to turn it on. Throwing it at a baddie or what have you. They just can't keep it, or put any D into the lightsaber skill. More likely they will injury themselves really bad if they try to wield it.
I just don't like how a Jedi's connection to the Force effects their lightsaber at all. As "Jedi Guardians" types were suppose to be the lightsaber fighters. Though taking RAW rules a "Jedi Consular" type would be the superior fighter because their force power is so high.
I like my players to have to decide if they are going to take the power through the lightsaber, or power through the force type of deal. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: |
I think its from a 'balance' point of view. Its meant to make lightsabers less effective in the hands of non-jedis.
Im thinking of raising the damage to 8D and only have 1pip per full D in Control as a bonus. But removing the damage bonus alltogether is also a possible solution.
Im also trying to find a balance for Jedis, where they can be challenged by very experienced opponents, but perhaps not go back to the 1st Ed weaklings... |
I'm not experienced with running Jedi, but doesn't the simple existence of combat sense make lightsabers much less effective in the hands of non-Jedis? Why should Jedi be able to do so much more damage with the same big glowy sword than a layman, especially if the layman has practiced with the lightsaber much more than the Jedi? Swinging a lightsaber through your opponents neck, for example, ought to do the same damage regardless of whether your player is a Jedi or not.
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon highlights a lot of where I am coming from too. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: |
I think its from a 'balance' point of view. Its meant to make lightsabers less effective in the hands of non-jedis.
Im thinking of raising the damage to 8D and only have 1pip per full D in Control as a bonus. But removing the damage bonus alltogether is also a possible solution.
Im also trying to find a balance for Jedis, where they can be challenged by very experienced opponents, but perhaps not go back to the 1st Ed weaklings... |
I'm not experienced with running Jedi, but doesn't the simple existence of combat sense make lightsabers much less effective in the hands of non-Jedis? Why should Jedi be able to do so much more damage with the same big glowy sword than a layman, especially if the layman has practiced with the lightsaber much more than the Jedi? Swinging a lightsaber through your opponents neck, for example, ought to do the same damage regardless of whether your player is a Jedi or not. |
All Jedis dont have combat sense. What really makes a difference is the LSC power, as more or less all Jedis have that power.
Why? I Dunno. I propose raising the LS damage and lower the Control damage bonus (to 1/3) which means that the difference in damage inflicted between the Jedi and the layman will be much less.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | So anyone with a lightsaber Jedi or not does 10D damage?
That does seem a bit much to me. |
Agreed. That is effectively saying that a LS base damage should be the same as a thermal detonator.
| Quote: | | I also don't allow anyone but Force Sensitives to have lightsabers. |
And how do you prevent those non force sensitives from picking uyp and using lightsabers?>?
| Quote: | | I fix the problem of lightsabers of non-force user as I won't allow someone to have them unless they are Force Sensitive. Not the whole, someone dropped a lightsaber and someone picked it up then happened to turn it on. Throwing it at a baddie or what have you. They just can't keep it, or put any D into the lightsaber skill. More likely they will injury themselves really bad if they try to wield it. |
SO what.. the LS flies out of their hands? They always get injured??
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: | So anyone with a lightsaber Jedi or not does 10D damage?
That does seem a bit much to me. |
Agreed. That is effectively saying that a LS base damage should be the same as a thermal detonator. |
Up until The Phantom Menace, we never really saw any differences between lightsabers at point of contact, and what a thermal detonator was supposed to do at point of contact. And then, we still don't know how that superheavy blast door would have fared against a thermal detonator. Furthermore, IIRC, a lightsaber's power cell can explode "like a thermal detonator" if shot or cut, and a saber just confines this energy and localizes it in much the same way a thermal detonator is supposed to.
We see an E-Web doing apparently less damage than a lightsaber in ESB. A strong woookiee with a good vibrosword can also hit those high damage numbers, too. 9D or 10D is how I would have statted a lightsaber if I was building this game from scratch.
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I actually think that the Jedi's skill with the Force should proportionately affect his ability to fight with a lightsaber.
I think that the main problem we see has nothing to do with adding control to damage. It's because the Jedi get's to roll two skills together to attack and parry. If you just get rid of that aspect, what difference does it really make whether a lightsaber deals 10D (static) damage or 5D+Control. Either way, you're still going to annihilate anything you hit with the lightsaber.
Instead of giving lightsabers a huge base damage, you could remove the bonus that sense grants to the lightsaber skill, and then allow only a portion of the Jedi's control skill to add/subtract to damage. Even if you limit it to 1/2 control dice, this drastically brings the lightsaber into a balanced levels. Even with 10D in control, you're dealing 10D damage. With 6D in control (which is more within typical PC range) you're doing 8D damage, which is still a wallop but not much more than some of the stronger characters (wookiees etc).
These are just my $.02. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | I actually think that the Jedi's skill with the Force should proportionately affect his ability to fight with a lightsaber.
I think that the main problem we see has nothing to do with adding control to damage. It's because the Jedi get's to roll two skills together to attack and parry. If you just get rid of that aspect, what difference does it really make whether a lightsaber deals 10D (static) damage or 5D+Control. Either way, you're still going to annihilate anything you hit with the lightsaber.
Instead of giving lightsabers a huge base damage, you could remove the bonus that sense grants to the lightsaber skill, and then allow only a portion of the Jedi's control skill to add/subtract to damage. Even if you limit it to 1/2 control dice, this drastically brings the lightsaber into a balanced levels. Even with 10D in control, you're dealing 10D damage. With 6D in control (which is more within typical PC range) you're doing 8D damage, which is still a wallop but not much more than some of the stronger characters (wookiees etc).
These are just my $.02. |
ATM My LSC bonuses are +1/2 Sense D to Attack Roll. + 1/2 Control D to damage. Mind you I have a system for lessening the penalty for keeping powers 'up'. Basically you get a 'free' power kept up for each 4D in Control. Also, I use the Jedis original Control/Sense stats to determine bonuses, not the MAP affected ones.
However, I will either raise the base damage to 6D or 8D. Depending on what I choose I will change the damage bonus accordingly. If I go the 8D way Ill probably remove the damage bonus alltogether. No real reason why a LS should deal more than 8D damage IMO. Perhaps a new force power can be invented that raises the LS damage, for those very rare occasions where you need more than 8D.
The only issue I can think of is that C/D Energy at 13D or so will make more or less automatically safe from a LS attack. But thats just one attack, more attacks and MAPs should take care of that...
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is I want lightsabers to do that much damage. I want them to be devastating. If it is a blade that can "cut through anything" I want it to cut through anything. My Static 10D is essentially someone with 5D Control. Anyone higher then that is doing more with their lightsaber then my static 10D. Sometimes I don't think 10D is enough. Cause essentially if my Jedi shoves their Lightsaber into a Krayt Dragon, I want that thing to dig deep into it.
| Quote: | | SO what.. the LS flies out of their hands? They always get injured?? |
No. They just can't place any skills in the lightsaber skill. So if they try to wield it, they can roll but more likely they will get injured. And they just can't keep it to wield it. Its an out of character rule. Whatever we have to think up to get rid of it we can.
If a player presents to me they want to recover the saber and put in storage. Maybe for a friend, memory, or etc I will allow that. But they just can't be breaking it out to use it, or try to present opportunities to do that if they aren't force sensitive.
Essentially though, if my player realllllyy wants to have a lightsaber they just make a force sensitive character. I don't have any restrictions on that. All my players can be force sensitive if they want to be. I will design the campaign towards that if so. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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How about Str+5D instead of a static 10D? Still gives pretty high damage, but also factors in a stronger character being able to put more leverage against the resistance of the blade and/or target.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | The thing is I want lightsabers to do that much damage. I want them to be devastating. If it is a blade that can "cut through anything" I want it to cut through anything. My Static 10D is essentially someone with 5D Control. Anyone higher then that is doing more with their lightsaber then my static 10D. Sometimes I don't think 10D is enough. Cause essentially if my Jedi shoves their Lightsaber into a Krayt Dragon, I want that thing to dig deep into it. |
I agree, the whole point of a lightsaber is that it is a magical cut-through-anything laser sword.
That said I'm of the opinion that the cut through anything nature should come (at least in part) from the skill of the wielder rather than just the blade itself. I wouldn't want someone to strap a lightsaber to a blast door or a starfighter with the blade pointing inwards and then turn it on remotely and have the lightsaber constantly output 10D damage to whatever it was strapped to.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm not even sure I like the adding of control to damage, I'd prefer damage to be based on how much the weilder exceeded his to-hit roll... but that is a topic for another thread.
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