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Leon The Lion
Commander
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I see it get used quite often.. hiding those illegal weapons on ships, palming that hold out so the customs guy does not find it, sneaking that weapon past guards. |
Let me repeat: that's fine and dandy. But it's not true in my advantures. Sure, I could rework my adventures and change the way I run the game to make the skill more useful... Nah, that would be too much work. 
Which is to say: personal prefrence again. No use arguing about it, we're not going to convince each other either way.
| garhkal wrote: | | How do you figure.. one skill is flat out lying to get what you want someone to do, the other is telling the truth to convince them. |
Both skills are, at the most basic level, about influencing someone's behaviour and/or opinions to be more in line with what you want. That in one case you use falsehood to do it, when in the other you use truth, is, in my opinion, a small enough difference to abstract away. At least at the abstraction level I'm comfortable with in this case. It certainly doesn't feel like a bigger difference than the one between driving a motorcycle and a sandcrawler. Which you seem not to mind being handled by the same skill?
| garhkal wrote: | | True but the higher the speed you go, the greater the difficulty, ergo a high running helps out in going faster. |
Sure. But it's not the only thing it does, like I pointed out. Which makes me see no problem with broadening the skill.
| garhkal wrote: | | I have not seen it being that common of one.. around 40% of those on this board from my memory seem to do it. |
Regardless of the actual precentage and it being or not being enough to call it common, that's what I've done, and I find it to work just fine.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Both skills are, at the most basic level, about influencing someone's behaviour and/or opinions to be more in line with what you want. That in one case you use falsehood to do it, when in the other you use truth, is, in my opinion, a small enough difference to abstract away. At least at the abstraction level I'm comfortable with in this case. |
Does your combined skill also include Intimidation - which is obviously just an attempt to influence someone's behavior or opinion in line with what you want? |
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Leon The Lion
Commander
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Does your combined skill also include Intimidation - which is obviously just an attempt to influence someone's behavior or opinion in line with what you want? |
I seriously considered folding in Intimidation also, but finally decided against it. The difference I perceived was that Con and Persuation are "soft", subtle, peaceful techniques, while Intimidation is "hard", blunt and aggressive - you're not "bending" someone, you're "breaking" them. I placed greater significance on this difference than on the truth/falshood difference between Persuation and Con. Just feels right this way. :shrug:
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer |
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Azai, that is cause parry does NOT JUST mean you block the opponents attack. it could mean you ducked his swing, or pirouetted out of the way. |
Then why not just have it be dodge instead? I have a problem with a skill that says "parry" but can also mean dodge, when there is a dodge skill. And I know many new players dislike this too.
I also think of characters that really don't want to be combat character yet want to be able to survive combat. So by allowing them just to dump skills into "dodge" they can have what they want.
A had a friend who played an adorable little jawa, that could just run around in combat trying to fix this and fix that. Screaming, yelping, and having a real fun time. Though if I went RAW with it she have to put dice in brawling parry and dodge to be able to dodge all attacks. I didn't like that.
But I do understand in RAW the parry also means you could have moved out of the way. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Then why not just have it be dodge instead? |
(1) That's not what the rules say.
(2) That makes dodge overpowering when compared to parry skills.
(3) It's unfair to the combat characters since dodge can be used to keep a non-combat character safe from all attacks, but their is no universal defensive TEC or KNO skill that combat characters can dump points into to avoid overspending on multiple TEC and KNO skills.
(4) No reason. Just make dodging require space and a retreat from the attack and/or give it a -10 to the dodge result (or alternately +10 to the attacker) for avoiding close attacks to provide a potential disadvantage compared to a parry then carry on.
Pick the answer you like best. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Does your combined skill also include Intimidation - which is obviously just an attempt to influence someone's behavior or opinion in line with what you want? |
I seriously considered folding in Intimidation also, but finally decided against it. The difference I perceived was that Con and Persuation are "soft", subtle, peaceful techniques, while Intimidation is "hard", blunt and aggressive - you're not "bending" someone, you're "breaking" them. I placed greater significance on this difference than on the truth/falshood difference between Persuation and Con. Just feels right this way. :shrug: |
Plus intimidation is under Knowledge, not Perception.
| Quote: | | Then why not just have it be dodge instead? I have a problem with a skill that says "parry" but can also mean dodge, when there is a dodge skill. And I know many new players dislike this too. |
Balance. If you just have ONE defensive skill for ground/character combat, then everyone will be great since you only have the 1 skill to dump points into. Which then drags out the combats as no one is getting hit.
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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I guess what I didn't like is the fact that for new players, if a GM wasn't able to make sure to explain the rules thoroughly, or if you didn't have access to the books you could easily get it mixed up. Spending starting skill dice in Dodge and then not be able to use it as a "surprise" against a certain attack.
Personally, having done this for a few of my campaigns, I've never seen dodge get so over powered. Combat characters still want to spread out their skills, and if you have a hybrid smuggler/fighter, techie/fighter because they have to spend more skills anyways I've never seen dodge get above 8D for anyone.
Though in the end I do want to see I do understand the reasons, and why WEG did include this. I just don't wish to use it for my games. |
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I find if dodge is used to more or less wildly duck or ignobly leap out of the way of a vibroblade, lightsaber, or Barabel punch and you prevent the character from taking any further actions in the round after the dodge and there is sufficient checks and balances to keep every character from just loading up on dodge. You can even allow the attacker to control the direction of motion of the defender doing the dodge.
The key is the two part consequence: (1) lose any other actions that round and (2) look like you don't know how to fight while you are doing it.  |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | I guess what I didn't like is the fact that for new players, if a GM wasn't able to make sure to explain the rules thoroughly, or if you didn't have access to the books you could easily get it mixed up. Spending starting skill dice in Dodge and then not be able to use it as a "surprise" against a certain attack. |
That's why i go over all the reaction skills, with a mock combat. So they know the differences and where each gets used.
| Azai wrote: |
Personally, having done this for a few of my campaigns, I've never seen dodge get so over powered. Combat characters still want to spread out their skills, and if you have a hybrid smuggler/fighter, techie/fighter because they have to spend more skills anyways I've never seen dodge get above 8D for anyone. |
I guess its cause of the different groups we have been around.
| Quote: | I find if dodge is used to more or less wildly duck or ignobly leap out of the way of a vibroblade, lightsaber, or Barabel punch and you prevent the character from taking any further actions in the round after the dodge and there is sufficient checks and balances to keep every character from just loading up on dodge. You can even allow the attacker to control the direction of motion of the defender doing the dodge.
The key is the two part consequence: (1) lose any other actions that round and |
I have found that #1 aspect does help balance it out (dodge out of a melee attack, can't counter as you are not close enough).
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Bren
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have found that #1 aspect does help balance it out (dodge out of a melee attack, can't counter as you are not close enough). |
1 is to provide balance from the character POV. For many (maybe most) players, 2 provides additional balance from the player POV. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how "looking like you don't know how to fight" balances anything.
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Azai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Group shame, and character embarrassment .
I like the idea of if you use dodge against melee or unarmed you can't attack that round. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Group shame, and character embarrassment . |
Exactly.  Many players* want their characters to become powerful and to do, and to be seen doing, cool and dramatic things, not haplessly flubbing up in a Homer Simpson-like or Three Stooges fashion. It works for those types of players.
* Obviously not all. Some players enjoy having their characters act goofy, make mistakes, or even fail to succeed. This technique may not work with those players, but then they are seldom powergaming, min-maxers who are trying to squeeze the most combat skills and bonuses out of the fewest number of CPs. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I guess i have never met a player who let shame/embarrassment stop them doing anything.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I guess i have never met a player who let shame/embarrassment stop them doing anything. |
Wow.  That amazes me. I find many, if not most, people treat their characters as an emotional extension of themselves, at least to an extent, and in my experience most people in the RW don't like feeling humiliated or looking stupid. This tends to carry over into RPGs. Most players don't like their characters looking stupid or being humiliated.
Clearly there are some exceptions for players who enjoy playing humourous characters or who just enjoy humor, but generally the player prefers to be in control of the situation rather than having a pratfall forced on them. |
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