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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: |
The Seven Forms tend to be a lot deeper than just a stance, though. In their own way, each Form is its own philosophy and mindset. How can you simultaneously maintain the focused and opposed mindsets of Attack (Form V) and Defense (Form III)? I have no problem with adepts of multiple Forms changing Forms at the beginning of a new round, but the focus of the Forms themselves runs far too deep for you to simply be able to stack one on top of the other. |
I would tend to agree here. The goal of the fighter is going to influence his approach to the fight. However, if you use strike an opponent with a Form 5 technique and he swings back at you afterward, you don't "forget" your Form 3 parries until your next turn.
Not to mention that Form 5 wouldn't even exist without Form 3. |
That's part of the reason I kept Form I as basic Lightsaber. The Wikipedia article on Form I states that adepts of the more advanced Forms incorporate the basic moves and stances of Form I into their new Form. I took this to mean that, even while a Jedi is focusing on his chosen Form, he continues to refine the basic techniques of Form I along with it. In game terms, the character is spending CPs to improve his basic technique (Form I) in concert with the more advanced techniques of his chosen Form. All the Forms incorporate both offensive and defensive moves, the same body-targeting zones, and a lot of other basic techniques. The difference is the manner in which a given Form applies those lessons. It's not that your character is attacking using Form V and defending using Form III; it's that he is either attacking or defending using the same basic lessons of Form I as modified and enhanced by the advanced techniques and philosophical approach of Form III or Form V.
| Quote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Of course, in the D6 SWU, this increased experience is expressed as skill dice levels. Stacking bonuses from multiple Forms would have the same effect as investing a few dice in the basic Lightsaber (Form I) skill, plus the advanced skill. |
This is probably the most crucial point on which we may disagree. Not that I'm saying you're wrong, only that I find it much more fun to represent "experience" with mechanics other than just "more dice." So, a character with 5D lightsaber and 3D in all seven forms would still only roll 8D when using his lightsaber, but would have a vast array of options and features in effect at once (such a character would take A LOT of play sessions to develop, but I present this idea just as an example). |
Actually, with my system, I have an even better fix. A character with 6D in Lightsaber and 2D each in Forms II, III, IV and V can now learn Form VII, whose combat bonuses apply in all combat situations. The CPs that he saved there can in turn be applied to his Willpower skill, which he needs to counter Form VII's only real weakness.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The CPs that he saved there can in turn be applied to his Willpower skill, which he needs to counter Form VII's only real weakness. |
Based on the confrontation between Mace and Sideous it looks like another weakness may be that Vaapad is too focused on combat. Perhaps like Combat Sense which only gives a bonus against the number of opponents that the Jedi selects to defende against.
| Quote: | | Combat sense allows a Jedi to focus on the battle at hand. Everything else becomes dulled and muted as the Jedi’s senses are all turned toward the combat occurring around him. |
Mace seems oblivious to Anakin's words, thoughts, and emotions - hence his surprise when Anakin intervenes to help Sideous. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Mace seems oblivious to Anakin's words, thoughts, and emotions - hence his surprise when Anakin intervenes to help Sideous. |
I think it was a case of Mace misreading the situation. When Anakin tells Mace his supsciouns that the Chancellor might be the Sith Lord the've been looking for, ace tells Anakin that he has gained his trust.
It might very well be that when Anakin showed up, Mace misread Anakin's concern and anxiety. He might have sensed that Anakin was troubled, but misunderstood why, or thatAnakin would step in.
I don7t think Anakin eant to kill Windu, just prevent hi to killing Palaptine out of hand. So Mace might not have sensed any animosity from Anakin. It seems that only after Anakin "disarmed" Windu and Palpatine exploited the opportunity to kill Windu that Anakin realized the consequences of his action, and decided to turn to the Dark Side.
Although, IMO, the scene plays less like Anakin turning to evil than his making an error in judgent and not being able to face it. I also think that is why Palatine sends Anakin off to assault the Jedi temple. So Annakin won't have tie to cme to his senses and repent. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I think it was a case of Mace misreading the situation. |
Could be. It could also be that I am just not fully comfortable with the Mace Windu as a Shaft-like bad motha foundation to the Vaapad myth.
I tend to think you are right about Anakin having a big Doh! moment rather than a single clear choosing evil point.
The more I watch the Clone Wars TV show the more I like the animated Anakin 8) than the live Anakin. I think he is far more believable on TV as an impatient, egotistical teen with too much power and not enough sense or humility. And he is so much less whiny on the TV show. I wonder if George can hear the difference? |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | [ tend to think you are right about Anakin having a big Doh! moment rather than a single clear choosing evil point. |
To me it looks like he wanted to stop Windu from killing Palpatine, and only partially for selfish reasons. Windu's slaying Palpy out of hand might have been wrong. it is just that Anakin fails to forsee the consequences of his action until after Windu gets blasted out through the window. I think he is just too ashaed and embarassed about his mistake to go to the Jedi and admit that he messed up so badly.
it7s as if he would rather be thought of as evil than as an idiot..
| Quote: |
The more I watch the Clone Wars TV show the more I like the animated Anakin 8) than the live Anakin. I think he is far more believable on TV as an impatient, egotistical teen with too much power and not enough sense or humility. And he is so much less whiny on the TV show. I wonder if George can hear the difference? |
I know what you ean. I think it is signficant that Hayden Christiansen wanted to do the voice of Anakin in the Clone Wars series and was turned down. I bet none of the other leads from the films would have been turned down.
CW Anakin is is bit angry and frsutrated, but not as whiney as prequel Anakin. He looks like he wants to do good, but chafes as the code that restricts hi from bringing an end to the problem. Showing things over a longer tiespan also allows the war to wear him down. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | CW Anakin is is bit angry and frsutrated, but not as whiney as prequel Anakin. He looks like he wants to do good, but chafes as the code that restricts hi from bringing an end to the problem. Showing things over a longer tiespan also allows the war to wear him down. |
Yes, in the CW TV shows he has an ends justify the means attitude towards the war which is at odds with the Jedi Council who take a rule based approach. And because the Council on screen never provides a full and satisfactory explanation of why it is necessary to capture Dooku and Grievous which runs the risk of them escaping (and thus prolongin a war that is costing millions of casualties) rather than executing them right away - we can see Anakin's point while at the same time his anger and impatience make us doubt the wisdom of the means he would use. |
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Naaman
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Based on the confrontation between Mace and Sideous it looks like another weakness may be that Vaapad is too focused on combat. Perhaps like Combat Sense which only gives a bonus against the number of opponents that the Jedi selects to defende against.
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For some reason, I doubt GL had the nuances of Vaapad vs Djem-So in mind when he wrote that scene... not to sound too aggressive, here... I just don't think that we can subordinate the movie writing to the subsequently released, and largely fan-fueled, money-grubbing merchandisers' offerings.
I personally feel that the movies contradict the peripheral releases in so many ways that you have to take them with a grain of salt.
As it pertains to lightsaber combat, the fact that "they" claim Qui-Gon uses form 4 is kinda ridiculous, when you compare Qui-Gon to Yoda (some folks make the argument that Yoda was a full-fledged master of the Form, and that's why he looks different; I say it's because either A) GL doesn't care about the seven forms, or B) they jumped the gun claiming that Qui-Gon was a From 4 user BEFORE they saw Ep II. If anything, Qui-Gon's fighting looks very much like European swordplay (Form 1), while Yoda looks like some Chop-Saki Wuxia-inspired, semi-Darh-Maul-esque style.
I made a character who studies Form 4, and I based that character's movements and style on Brad Pitt's portrayal of Achilles in the movie Troy. Another possibility for what I envision Form 4 to look like would be, to a lesser extent, the character Gannicus from Gods of the Arena. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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While I tend to agree with regards to Form IV looking more acrobatic, I can say with some certainty that the "they" in question actually knew what he was talking about. The article which originally proposed the Seven Forms, as well as originating the statement that Qui-gon and Obi-wan used Form IV, was cowritten by an actual swordfighter, fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo. This is a guy who fights with a sword on a level far above what you and I are capable of, and out of the Seven available Forms, this guy decided that Form IV was the closest match to what he saw Q and O use in TPM. Rather than nit-picking and saying "That doesn't look like Form IV", I chose to accept the man's expertise on the matter (especially compared to my own relative lack in that same area), and try to see what he saw.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Based on the confrontation between Mace and Sideous it looks like another weakness may be that Vaapad is too focused on combat. Perhaps like Combat Sense which only gives a bonus against the number of opponents that the Jedi selects to defende against. |
That is, of course, open to interpretation. However, when I was doing my initial write-up for the Seven Forms, I tried to adhere as much as possible to available concrete descriptions of the Form, not what people may or may not be able to infer as a result of their own interpretation of the film action. There is no mention of Form VII narrowing its focus too much. The only weakness mentioned is that the Jedi may begin to "enjoy" the combat too much.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: |
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There is that, but at the same time, if the extras do not conflict, then there is no reason they shouldn't be included. Despite Kenobi's age and relative fragility at the time of ANH, he is still more than capable of defending himself with Form III - Soresu (the primarily defensive Form) against Vader's aggressive Form V - Djem So. If someone were to tell me that Kenobi was using Form IV - Ataru in the duel with Vader, I would disagree, as it is obvious that the saber fight on the Death Star lacked any of the mobility one would expect to see in a Form IV fight.
And I think you are right about Achilles in Troy being a good example of how Form IV should look, with the mobility, speed and acrobatics...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | If someone were to tell me that Kenobi was using Form IV - Ataru in the duel with Vader, I would disagree, as it is obvious that the saber fight on the Death Star lacked any of the mobility one would expect to see in a Form IV fight. |
That actually touches on the point that I was trying to make: had the Fightsaber article been published earlier (or the choreography of the prequels been consistent with TPM), then Obi-Wan would have been declared as a Form 4 user, and the caption wouldsay he was using From 4. That's why I think that on-screen stuff is, at best, a poor representation of the seven Forms... though I personally consider it to be completely "non compliant" with, and lacking any regard for, the Fightsaber article. Now, for me, since I regard the Films as the "purest" source of canon material, if I see something in a movie that isn't quite what some author described, I interpret the movie into a house rule (if I like it) and leave out the other stuff. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I think there is only one person who could make any sense of the lightsaber forms in the extras and EU v.s. the movies, and that's legendary swordmaster Bob Anderson. Does anyone know of any comments on the subject from him?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | That actually touches on the point that I was trying to make: had the Fightsaber article been published earlier (or the choreography of the prequels been consistent with TPM), then Obi-Wan would have been declared as a Form 4 user, and the caption wouldsay he was using From 4. |
Wait, what? You need to explain yourself more clearly. And also, how does this even matter? Fightsaber was published when it was published by a person who actually knows a good deal about swordplay who based it on evidence he observed in the films. IMO, saying that things would've been done differently if a fictional article about a fictional martial form in a fictional universe had been published one year earlier is really absurd.
The article also notes that by the time of the original film, Obi-wan had been a long-time master of Form III, having abandoned Form IV during the time of the prequels. Indeed, according to the prequel novels, he was already a Form III master when he fought Dooku and Grievous in ROTS.
| Quote: | | That's why I think that on-screen stuff is, at best, a poor representation of the seven Forms... though I personally consider it to be completely "non compliant" with, and lacking any regard for, the Fightsaber article. Now, for me, since I regard the Films as the "purest" source of canon material, if I see something in a movie that isn't quite what some author described, I interpret the movie into a house rule (if I like it) and leave out the other stuff. |
And that is your prerogative. Unfortunately, the Seven Forms have become too far ingrained in the canon material of the prequels (and indeed, the entire pre-Imperial SWU) to be excised cleanly. They are a part of the canon. Period. They don't necessarily have to be part of your canon, but IMO, the more you remove to fit how you want things to be, the less like the "real" SWU it becomes. The films do not address the Seven Forms at all, leaving it entirely up to the EU, and George's rules for the canon are "the films and anything that doesn't conflict with them." If the Seven Forms don't conflict, they are in. And no offense intended, but unless you are actually trained as a swordfighter, I think I will stick with Fightsaber as a reliable source.
Another thing to consider is the possibility of variation within the Seven Forms themselves. They are, after all, just as much a philosophy as a style of fighting, so you don't have to hopping around like a monkey on crack to believe the same thing. While Qui-gon and Obi-wan are nowhere near as spectacularly acrobatic as Yoda, their fighting style does incorporate a lot of fluidity and motion that has them bobbing weaving through combat. The key to Form IV is Force-enhanced movement, so just because they aren't jumping around like Yoda does not mean that they aren't using their own variation of the same Form.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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