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Jachra
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: [Force Power] Reactive Training |
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(Alter Power)
Reactive Training
Prerequisites: Telekinesis, Danger Sense
Alter Difficulty: See Telekinesis
This power may be used as a reaction
Description: After considerable practice, a Force user can fine-tune her senses to the point where she can react with great efficiency to unexpected hostile action, beyond the normal ability of a Jedi to detect surprises, and respond with the Force itself. Naturally, only attacks that can be affected by telekinesis may be defended against, so bullets can be stopped but not blaster bolts.
Effectively, she may now use Telekinesis as a reaction skill, in response to any attack she detects. Grenades and thrown weapons may be tossed back, while assailants may be pinned or shoved back. Against hails of projectiles, such as flechettes or bullets, she may halt them dead in their tracks, which is one reaction action for every attack the Jedi is subjected to (such as one fragmentation blast, one burst of automatic fire, one single-shot round, so on) incurring a Multiple Action Penalty.
Most bullets and other light projectiles are so light that the Jedi can stop them regardless of their velocity, and will clatter harmlessly to the ground - the effects of exploding bullets will be repelled away as they burst in a shower of metal. Against larger projectiles, such as shells fired from an industrial-era tank, simply look up the weight of the shell and compare it to the Telekinesis chart - if the Jedi can beat the difficulty, she sends the shell sailing off past her, deflected, and it will impact a target beyond her. Most shells that aren’t heavy artillery or ship-borne will be less than 10kg.
This can be used to defend an ally within the Jedi’s Alter dice in meters.
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A solid way to deal with solid projectiles.
Thought this might be a reasonable way to expand Telekinesis. I suppose it might be argued that it's native to telekinesis, but I don't think so necessarily - and it seems totally fair for me to have them develop it in a power.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Not bad.. i might include that reflecting stuff that causes others injury incurs a DSP.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:07 am Post subject: |
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I might raise the difficulty relative to standard telekinesis, to represent the fact that it's harder to manipulate something that already has velocity, vs something thats just lying about.
Another possibility could be that use of the power requires the expenditure of a character point. Again, to represent the "emergency" nature of the power. |
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Jachra
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Not bad.. i might include that reflecting stuff that causes others injury incurs a DSP. |
Interesting, but wouldn't that also count for deflecting blaster bolts? I don't think it should cause an automatic DSP any more than that (one might, say, deflect a blaster bolt into an orphan, obviously.)
| Naaman wrote: | | Another possibility could be that use of the power requires the expenditure of a character point. Again, to represent the "emergency" nature of the power. |
I don't know about that so much, it doesn't honestly seem like a terribly hard thing when you get down to it. It can only be used if your Danger Sense picks things up in the first place (or, you know, you perceive the projectile being fired normally.) Again, I might compare it to a slightly odd Lightsaber Combat deflection.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Meh... It's your house rule. Just throwin' in my two bits. |
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Jachra
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, not trying to be offensive.
Indeed, I was taking your suggestion seriously, and addressing my opinion on it. I disagreed, certainly, but it did add meaningfully to the discourse.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Not bad.. i might include that reflecting stuff that causes others injury incurs a DSP. |
Interesting, but wouldn't that also count for deflecting blaster bolts? I don't think it should cause an automatic DSP any more than that (one might, say, deflect a blaster bolt into an orphan, obviously.)
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The diff is, TK itself says that any use of it to cause damage, even if indirectly (holding someone in place while another skewers them) gives the TK user a dsp. LS combat on the other hand (where the bolt parrying comes in) has no warnings for DSP use attached.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | TK itself says that any use of it to cause damage, even if indirectly (holding someone in place while another skewers them) gives the TK user a dsp. LS combat on the other hand (where the bolt parrying comes in) has no warnings for DSP use attached. |
Yes, but that's completely arbitrary, like a lot of WEG's inconsistent rules. I can see a certain argument for it, but Jedi use it offensively all the time, including against living beings. Are they just blithely gathering DSPs without a care? Simplest explanation is that WEG got it wrong.
Even if you accept the TK = DSP rule, however, using someone's own force back on them is the very cornerstone of defensive combat, which falls right into line with the entire purpose of the lightsaber.
Of course, the power could work even with a DSP rule. Honestly, deflections never occurred to me when I conceived of the power. I don't agree with the DSP but nothing prevents it.
Addendum: To clarify, I don't think bullets should be shot back. This is more of a "bounce away" effect.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: |
Yes, but that's completely arbitrary, like a lot of WEG's inconsistent rules. I can see a certain argument for it, but Jedi use it offensively all the time, including against living beings. Are they just blithely gathering DSPs without a care? Simplest explanation is that WEG got it wrong.
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I respectfully disagree about "WEG got it wrong", what happoened is the Star Wars Universe and portrayal of how the force was used and could be used was changed radicly in the time from the first movie to the new trilogy. It was not until the New Trilogy that the Jedi deemed so reckless and careless in using the force in ways that could be deemed harmful, in direct contradiction to statements made in the first three movies, and this has been the source of much debate and ill will among fans of the old and new, not just in Role Playing Context.
I do not want to reheat fires of that sort, so I will point out - when WEG wrote the context of the rules, they had the context of the Original Movies, and much source and production material from those movies to use as reference when basing said rules. This was their only frame of reference, and so they tried to be as true to that context as possible - even quoting Yoda from the Empire Strikes Back in the sections on the force and it's uses. Since the movie did not make a big deal of rebounding blaster shots, and it can easily be explained away that it's little different than hitting the guy with the lightsaber since he's shooting at you he's a valid target, they most likely did not feel it was an issue of the Dark Side. However, the movies did contain very strict warnings about using the force itself for harm, out of fear, or out of anger - and so many force powers do contain explicit warnings that using them in certain malicious ways is a DSP - i.e. once a target is pinned with Telekinesis he is not longer a threat so holding him to allow him to be skewered is just malicious, therefore should garner a DSP. I am not now, nor ever was a member of WEG staff, and have only read many of their interviews and commentaries at conventions and other sources, so this is speculation on my part to some extent.
In the new trilogy, the force is clearly used much more agressively constantly, seemingly flying in the face of Yoda's warnings to Luke. Yoda himself, in the new trilogy, does not seem to follow his own humbled advice. What is this? Perhaps those stern warnings to luke WERE over-ewxagerated precisely because Luke is Vader's son and Yoda and Ben feared he might easily be lured to the Dark Side (speculation). After All, we know, Ben and Yoda have no problem being rather loose with the facts and the truth - even being evasive and trying to justify it (something to me that is very immoral and comes across as being an aspect of the dark side but is never once touched on). If this were the case, it would mean that when WEG wrote the rules, they were basing it on false information from the ground up. If the Star Wars universe merely changed, then it has served to make the rules appear inconsistant and obsolete. Whatever the case, I doubt every game master will ever agree on ways to handle the force and the dark side, and all that can be done is to do the best you can.
I have tried to reconcile some of the ways telekinesis may be used by a Jedi without garnering a DSP as restraint, as defense, and to push or repel oponents away with the intent merely to get them back and give clearance (as long as they are not thrown to inflict damage, or into harmful objects, I will generally allow shoving, pushing, and even tripping to gain advantage without injury without awarding a DSP) - in all of these it becomes a case by case basis, and the intent of the Jedi player becomes the paramount focus of concern. A perfect solution? Hardly. A reasonable compromise? I feel it is.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
*edit* Wanted to mention, regarding deflecting Blaster Bolts - while there is no DSP in the rules, for deflecting them into attackers, or randomly, I have arranged tricky situations for my Jedi where they were attacked in a very crowded market square. I made a definitive note to the Jedi that if deflecting blasters he had to be careful or he might injur an innocent. I then was monitoring as if he did randomly deflect without care as to where it went, it might have hit a bystander, and a DSP would have been awarded for his reckless disregard of lives. Some would disagree with this and call it harsh, but I stand by it. The Jedi in question was particularly careful about deflecting all of the shots into the ground in front of him.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I just run it such that if it happenedin the movies, it's fair game.
On the other hand, context and intent does have an effect. Yoda knocking out the guardsmen instead of killing them with his lightsaber is just fine. Using the force to slam a prisoner into a wall during an interrogation... Not cool. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Using the force to slam a prisoner into a wall during an interrogation... Not cool. |
I think you mean "not acceptable", because you have to admit, it is pretty cool.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think a lot of it also came from the coolness people kept saying they wanted to see from the jedi being able to 'cut loose' in the prequal trilogy as to why lucas had them opening up with force powers a lot more 'freely.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | On the other hand, context and intent does have an effect. Yoda knocking out the guardsmen instead of killing them with his lightsaber is just fine. |
This, though a small mention in passing, is an excellent point and I never put a lot of thought into. I still use a modified version of the First Edition wounds system, where Stun damage was completely seperate from Wound Damage, and it was possible to do hand-to-hand damage as stun only. Given that, and my players are made aware of such distinctions, It does seem logical the force could be used that way as well - though it has never once come up. Myself and my players as well I think have always assumed that using TK would be normal damage and so knocking the heads together would have been considered a DSP - but with this phrased this way I have to consider if a player specifically asks to do Stun only... and it somewhat surprises me some of my more clever players have never raised that question.
hmmmmmmmm......
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Jachra
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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While I do agree that it was based on the original movies, I disagree that they were always making the best possible editorial decisions at the time. The books are rife with head-scratching decisions even from a standpoint that predates the prequels. Heck, I remember playing this game before and not buying their argument regarding telekinesis. That's all peanuts, now, since we have film evidence suggesting that judicious telekinetic attacks are permissable.
Really, my general principle for DSP for powers that are not strictly Dark Sided is asking myself 'is this cruel or unnecessary?'
That also goes for actions that don't use the Force. A Force Sensitive has to be aware.
As for the power, does it seem mechanically sound and does it add meaningfully to the list?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | | As for the power, does it seem mechanically sound and does it add meaningfully to the list? |
Yes and no.
By that I mean - I have always allowed TK to be used to an extent as a reactionary skill to deflect falling, thrown objects, though bullets I have never had come up (a mini-missile did once). So, in that regard, yes I would say it's mechanicly sound.
However...
I personally have never liked the way Force Powers have been written up or handled since the advent of Second Eddition for many reasons. One of them is that, even in official sources, I see an ever growing list of force powers, with many, many overlaps, some growing ever more increasingly specialized and narrow in capability (not saying this is one), and some that overlap some of the things I consider to be innate qualities in the three force attributes themselves (to me having a Sense Forse Power under Sense is no different than having a see with eyes skill under perception). I feel it is already a function of telekinesis, and the difficult for mas and speed of objects deflects as well as MAPS for reactionary skill use should be added on to the attack roll of said objects for the skill difficulty. So deflecting a single thrown grenade might seem easy, but a hail of fire from an SMG with a dozen bullets, though smaller, will prove harder due to numerous objects. These are just my thoughts and personal feelings though. If you like the second edditions method of force powers then it does add meaningfully to that list I suppose.
Oh, with all objects deflected though, there should be a difficulty modify for the speed of the projectile adde. Using TK to lift a boulder as opposed to change the direction of a supersonic tank-shell are two different things. Force=Mass*acceleration after all (pun intended)
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