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Adventure Writer's Block
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vanir
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cool, I knew I was placing you on the defensive with my approach. Don't get me wrong I'm not attacking you, I'm not that fantastic a GM, I'm being completely impersonal and just solving the problem as it appears here.

See when you say, "countless NPCs of interest, numerous conversation fragments that should've been interesting," you're talking about of interest to you. Obviously they weren't of interest to the players because they didn't find them interesting.

You say I need to sit down with the group to see for myself but these are the gamemastering basics described in length since the days of the old dungeon masters handbook in D&D teaching GMs that it comes down to adaptability and shifting styles and sometimes a bit of psychology but go light on that, mostly it's about listening more and catering more, assuming the player group does actually want to play an RPG.

The only real thing I need to know, which is the only real assumption I made is the question, has this group of players ever played a tabletop RPG before?

Because either they didn't really know what an RPG is and are finding they don't really like PnP RPG, or if they've played one before, no offence but it's on the GM. If I was GMing it'd be on me. I probably can't GM every group, I think Bren probably could GM any group, but we're just human and need to accept our failings.

You gotta take a step back and decide, either they know what an RPG is so you have to find some style or way of GMing that works for this group, or they've never played one before and don't really like RPG. Maybe they prefer baseball.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanir wrote:
You gotta take a step back and decide, either they know what an RPG is so you have to find some style or way of GMing that works for this group, or they've never played one before and don't really like RPG. Maybe they prefer baseball.

Again, asumptions that it must be the GM not having seen the behavior first hand - please stop that.

They've played before - but even their past GM's said they are a problem group. No real motivation or way to motivate.

As to the "Age old methods" as I already said - those only work if a group is actually willing to invest in the game. If not,. it does not matter what you do. While I am rusty, I have GMed for 20+ years, and usually I will only have one problem player in a group - but every member of this group is displaying problematic behaviour.

As to the "of interest to me" as I already said, I based these off of things the players expressed interest in when creating the characters. So the only other option is they intentionally lied. They chose the timeframe of the campaign. They chose the main locations of interest (the core worlds). They chose their inter-character relationships (and subsequently disregarded them). They built the characters with only the loosest guidelines from templates. I gave them almost free reign as I said, and built the story from there.

I don't really feel like recanting every detail of the last two sessions to try to explain events or justify my GMing, so please, without having been there, played in a game I have run (or even read an adventure I have written) stop placing unbased judgements on my GMing. I can say with reasonable certainty every GM has had a Problem player that goes out of their way to be difficult or just wont take an active part in the game no matter what you do - but still insists they want to play - so imagine an entire group of them - that's what this is. I only agreed because D6 players are scarce, and since it's 3 players I figured I could get them moving - I did not realize how difficult they were.
Just to be clear - that bit about them wanting to sit around the starport motel looking for Porn on the holoviewer was not a euphamism or exageration, but an actual player actions. The one player even kept insisting I describe it in detail and I explained to him several times I will not run that sort of game, if he insists his character is watching that sort of material he has to use his imagination. Another player was intent on ordering lots of take out food or room service and sending it to other rooms because it was funny...it's a group of 40 year olds who seem to want to roleplay just to act out their high-school pranks and glory days again. I am not interested in running or GMing that sort of game. It is certainly not the style or spirit of Star Wars D6 - there are other game systems more cattered to this sort of attitude (some designed with it in mind).

I will give it a few more sessions, and if they keep intentionally sabotaging the game, or refusing to take an active part - I'm disolving the group.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong, going by what I've seen you write on the boards so far I like the way you'd GM and I'd enjoy playing in one of your games. We see eye to eye on a lot of points like which canon to apply and how to handle house rules, all good and what suits me as mature RPG.

I'm just saying I've got a hard arse gaming group, and they can chew up GMs and spit them out, I've seen them do it when we were doing AD&D with a newby DM, the guy lost it. And they're like sharks, once there's blood in the water they're all running around doing stupid things eventually just to confound whatever this guy had planned. But from the players side I'm telling you they were frustrated with how he was running the game, too out of the book in this guy's case, he expected us to all tow the line like the good little players described in the DMG and here we were being violent little evil buggers killing every NPC we're supposed to save and just ruining every adventure, partly to try to get him to wake up, open his eyes and start listening to the players, not the book.

But that was that, this is this. I've had this same group in SW and me GM and there was a little hazing at the start, they just wouldn't do what players should be doing or what I wanted them to do and that's the real point.

They wouldn't do what I wanted them to do. They won't do what you want them to do. That's not what they're there for. They're there to have their fun, not feed yours and not adopt what you tell them is going to be fun. They know what's fun. Mucking about, being fools, ruining everything, hey that's what humans in the galaxy armed with blasters do, maybe hide so they don't get shot and watch a holovid, is there any porn?

Tell them what they see. Get them to roll a search for what they hear, because, and I'm really wondering why here, why when someone stopped to muck about your nicely GM'd game and stare at a holovid, why wasn't their pocket picked by a street urchin? You know what happens if you stop in Paris and stare at a billboard? You get your pocket picked and if you catch the guy, you've got a fight on your hands. There you go, instant action.
Everything is game related. If you don't like what they're doing, game it to them. But let them run the game, they're the players.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you understand - it just isn't going to work with these guys. I have tried gaming them into i t - they just ignore everything. As I have said, I have dropped a few things right in their laps and they just walked away. I'd really rather stop discussing it.

I get what you are saying about it not being a GM's job to tell the players how to have fun - but as a GM if I am not enjoying it, and my efforts are wasted, I really have better things to do. I will not run a game I do not enjoy with a group that does not appreciate it. Given I gave them choices of several game settings and systems, and they chose Star Wars...having played Star Wars D6 before, that comes with a certain expected mood (they agreed to this). They had a lot to say about where and when they wanted to be in Star Wars and I gave them a lot of input - and they don't seem to really want to play Star Wars. Their mood and style would have been far more appropriate to another game setting. If they were shooting NPCs, trying to rob a bank, looking for underworld contacts, trying to get in on a sabaac game or illegal bare knuckle alien Su-Dai, that would be something I could work with. Just wanting to sit around the ship, or sit around the hotel watching the paint peel or expecting me to graphicly describe adult entertainemtn Star Wars Style...no. The only thing I haven't done is have some random character bust through the door to the room guns blazing...it would make no sense, and it's definately desperation, but that's about what it seems it will take.
As to why their pocket wasn't picked, it was because when they were watching holovids they were in the hotel room - no street urchins handy. Right now, the Characters are nobodies, no bounties, not known for or wanted for anything - just average joes (or an average Bothan, Human, and wierd Reptile guy). I swear, the way the Privateer and Bothan engineer act, all I need to do is talk the Jedi into changing and playing a Kid or an Ewok, and have female loan shark own the rites to his ship and I can recreate Tale Spin a-la Star Wars...just make a space pirate themed off Don Carnage (most likely a Shistavanan)...

As it is, I never write linear adventures, haven't for a long time. I use event based adventures. Each Event is one scene of a larger plotline - they don't nescessarily need to happen in order - and several plots can be running simultaneously. I even have lots of free form events to fill gaps. This has worked rather well for the last 7 years I gamed before taking a long hiatus. I tried introducing actions for a number of events to this group. Some of the known Pirates that killed the one characters family being sighted. A character being chased through the streets by several surly looking sentients bumping into the players and running off. Muffled blaster fire down the hall. A disturbance in the force as someone choked to death in the starport. A group of very heavily armed beings showing up in the bar and flashing a lot of money around...one even getting very agitated and agressive toward one of the players characters. Bit's of overheard conversation about troubles on a certain world...bits about a group looking to charater a ship...bits about a once in a lifetime chance... rumors about an assasination on Mandalore... and so much more. The only one that netted any results was the training remotes attacking the Jedi Aprentice in the Bath.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KageRyu, your group sounds very frustrating. Shocked
KageRyu wrote:
Edit - forgot to mention, the reason running it completely freeform is problematic is that's what 90% of the questions wanting imediate answers are:
"What's the name of the street?" "What color socks does he have on?" "What color is the landspeeder next to us? What make and model is it? What's it's liscenseplate?"
They want every little detail and name of every little building, vehicle, and being/creature they pass and they act as if it's exceedingly important they know.
For these sorts of irrelevant and unessential details I would be tempted to do one of two things

1) "Guys, is there a reason you think the color of the guy's socks matters, because I'm not seeing it?" Essentially talking to them about why they are asking these sorts of questions and then trying to get everyone on the same page i.e. that this crap doesn't matter and is slowing down play.

2) Turn the question around and have them answer unimportant questions like color of socks or name of the street. Since it doesn't matter to you or to the adventure, let the players who care about this do some co-creating and make up sock color, street names, etc. (and if possible get a player to volunteer to record all the stuff they make up - even toss in an extra CP or two as a reward).

KageRyu wrote:
One of the players takes almost 5 minutes to describe exactly how his character is picking up and holding his drink...and keeps changing his mind about it.
Of course this doesn't sound promising. I mean seriously, WTF?

I'd probably have a serious discussion at the next play session about what everyone - including the GM want out of the game. It may be that this group has incompatible aims.
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know if there will be anything specific to your problem, but this site is one of the first places I turn when I have questions, or just need inspiration as a GM: http://www.roleplayingtips.com/archives/ While the information on the site is written by someone who obviously plays D&D, its all written in such a way that the advice/ideas can be used in any gaming system.

He's also pretty good about replying and giving advice if you take the time to send him a message asking about something.

Other than that, I really dont have any more ideas for deailing with your situation. I hope the above can be of some help.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.
I've never had this much trouble with a group before. I did talk to them a bit at the end of last session. I've had problem players before (usually only one in a group at a time) but I have always been able to work withthem and turn them around in the past. I think it's just such an issue this time because it's the whole group - and (for example) while one is taking five minutes to try to describe how he hold his drink (interupting others at that) another is demanding I describe the holo porn he's watching, and the third wants every detail and every street name he can see from the balconny - and the number of passing cars, what colors they are, how fast they move etc...

I have told them no for a lot of it, and asked why they feel it's important - they usually reply with frustration or a comment about how I should have it prepared. They are obviously getting a kick out of it, because two of them were laughing when behaving this way and I did tell them right then and there if this was how it was going to be I wasn't going to GM. That's the only reason the issue with the cargo delivery finally moved forward. Though since we left off right about to get the players into a skirmish, I called the game for the night as I was fairly irritated by that point and did not want to just masacre the players (even subconciously) out of frustration - so I figured I'd take a few days to cool down, let them think over what I said about group goals and desired style of play, and see how the next session goes. I'm going to prepare some handouts for suggestions they could do if they feel the game is dragging or they are getting bored, since some of them seem rusty at roleplaying (such as asking to use a specific skill for s specific purpose, like streetwise to ask around about high stakes sabaac games, illegal starship modifications, clues to underowlrd activity, etc...).

If they had chosen my space marine campaign it would have been soooooooooooo much simpler... "You get new orders" done...group motivated. lol
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This:
KageRyu wrote:
I think it's just such an issue this time because it's the whole group - and (for example) while one is taking five minutes to try to describe how he hold his drink (interupting others at that) another is demanding I describe the holo porn he's watching, and the third wants every detail and every street name he can see from the balconny - and the number of passing cars, what colors they are, how fast they move etc...
combined with this:
KageRyu wrote:
They are obviously getting a kick out of it, because two of them were laughing when behaving this way and I did tell them right then and there if this was how it was going to be I wasn't going to GM.
Makes me think you have some players who are being immature d!ck$.

KageRyu wrote:
If they had chosen my space marine campaign it would have been soooooooooooo much simpler... "You get new orders" done...group motivated. lol
But then someone would be asking how many blaster clips are in the other troopers belts, what are some of the other campaigns that that unit (not necessarily the PCs) have been on before, what color the unit patches are, how much does their NCO weigh, etc. This is sounding to me like "No gaming is better than bad gaming." Crying or Very sad
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
But then someone would be asking how many blaster clips are in the other troopers belts, what are some of the other campaigns that that unit (not necessarily the PCs) have been on before, what color the unit patches are, how much does their NCO weigh, etc. This is sounding to me like "No gaming is better than bad gaming." Crying or Very sad

Yes, but believe it or not, I have unit patches, and brief campaign histories for the unit (even a quick generation system converted to D6 inspired by the game Living Steel, by the company that made the Aliens RPG). Also I would most likely recycle the NPC liuetenant I had based off of the Sargeant from We Were Soldiers, he was hard core, and in the last group ended up smacking a PC around who got smart with him.
I even have a platoon and a half of friendly NPCs from the last Marine game I ran. With the more restrictive nature of a military themed game it's far easier to keep problem players in line too. But I only like to run those types of games for groups that enjoy them.

You might be right about no game vs bad game. That's why I am going to see how they act in the next session. If they improve or try to actually play this time, I'll keep the game going. If not...well...I like role playing, but am not going to waste time on futile efforts.
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
This:
KageRyu wrote:
I think it's just such an issue this time because it's the whole group - and (for example) while one is taking five minutes to try to describe how he hold his drink (interupting others at that) another is demanding I describe the holo porn he's watching, and the third wants every detail and every street name he can see from the balconny - and the number of passing cars, what colors they are, how fast they move etc...
combined with this:
KageRyu wrote:
They are obviously getting a kick out of it, because two of them were laughing when behaving this way and I did tell them right then and there if this was how it was going to be I wasn't going to GM.
Makes me think you have some players who are being immature d!ck$.


Thats the direction I'm leaning as well.


Bren wrote:
KageRyu wrote:
If they had chosen my space marine campaign it would have been soooooooooooo much simpler... "You get new orders" done...group motivated. lol
But then someone would be asking how many blaster clips are in the other troopers belts, what are some of the other campaigns that that unit (not necessarily the PCs) have been on before, what color the unit patches are, how much does their NCO weigh, etc. This is sounding to me like "No gaming is better than bad gaming." Crying or Very sad


Most of those questions would be pretty easy to answer:

Making it a special forces style unit only including the players would allow them to answer each other's question(s) as to what gear each of them has.

The emblem would be easy. Hand them a blank sheet of paper and say "I dont know, draw it for me!"

What campaigns have they participated in? Its a new unit. This is your first mission.

No gaming is better than no gaming? Personally, I LOVE gaming, and its one of the few things I get to do for myself anymore, . . . Given the kinds of problems being dealt with, I'd really have to consider if it was really worth it though. Roleplaying should be a fun experience for everyone involved, and GMing should be an especially rewarding and satisfying experience for the person who puts so much love and effort into each gaming session. I really hope that your talk sets the group on the right path so your gaming can become an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guardian_A wrote:
Most of those questions would be pretty easy to answer
Well then, how many pairs of socks are we issued? Does the CO have children, how many? What are their names, ages, hair and eye colors. What kind of personal items does the NPC in the 3rd bunk have in his locker? What about the guy/gal in the 4th bunk? How old are they? What's there father's middle name? What time do we have chow each day? What color is our toothbrush and is it manual, a droid appliance, sonic, or what? How about ration bars: what color? what do they taste like? how much do they mass? what is the caloric content and nutritional information and how is that balanced for the human and non-human species?

While some players may be interested in some of these details generally none of them are likely to change the direction of an adventure (with the possible exception of the NPCs dependent NPCs) and asking/demanding that the GM come up with or prepare answers seems like a derailing technique. If the group finds these questions interesting (and they may, for various reasons we answered several of the questions about ration bars - or rat-bars as our characters call them), then the group can collectively help create the answers. But I'm not gettting the impression that these answers are important to the players or that resolving these questions is adding to the Star Wars experience.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Guardian_A wrote:
Most of those questions would be pretty easy to answer
Well then, how many pairs of socks are we issued? Does the CO have children, how many? What are their names, ages, hair and eye colors. What kind of personal items does the NPC in the 3rd bunk have in his locker? What about the guy/gal in the 4th bunk? How old are they? What's there father's middle name? What time do we have chow each day? What color is our toothbrush and is it manual, a droid appliance, sonic, or what? How about ration bars: what color? what do they taste like? how much do they mass? what is the caloric content and nutritional information and how is that balanced for the human and non-human species?

While some players may be interested in some of these details generally none of them are likely to change the direction of an adventure (with the possible exception of the NPCs dependent NPCs) and asking/demanding that the GM come up with or prepare answers seems like a derailing technique. If the group finds these questions interesting (and they may, for various reasons we answered several of the questions about ration bars - or rat-bars as our characters call them), then the group can collectively help create the answers. But I'm not gettting the impression that these answers are important to the players or that resolving these questions is adding to the Star Wars experience.


Two. You dont know, he dosnt talk about it. The unit is isolated from the rest of the fort, there is no NPC in the third bunk. Or the fourth. White & electronic, standard issue. All rations are brown and tasteless in spite of the name on the package, all neutritional facts are in a language that you cant understand. Wink

Having characters help create unimportant information is always a great idea. Just make sure to have a pen & paper handy so you get the information down for future use.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guardian_A wrote:
Having characters help create unimportant information is always a great idea. Just make sure to have a pen & paper handy so you get the information down for future use.
Smile And you can try getting one of the players to act as the scribe, but I find that is usually only of mixed success.
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Guardian_A
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Guardian_A wrote:
Having characters help create unimportant information is always a great idea. Just make sure to have a pen & paper handy so you get the information down for future use.
Smile And you can try getting one of the players to act as the scribe, but I find that is usually only of mixed success.


Thats one of the things that we do in our games with the poker chips. Whoever takes notes for the GM gets an extra chip at the start of the game that they can spend during play. We're actually pretty lucky, we have two people in our group who like taking detailed notes during games (Yet somehow neither manage to slow the game down in any noticeable way.) Then when the game is over, I can take those notes and organize them on my computer by both location and timeline for future use.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, have to do this Wink
Bren wrote:
Well then, how many pairs of socks are we issued?

One Dress set, one set with fatigues. Do you wish to buy any more?
Quote:
Does the CO have children, how many? What are their names, ages, hair and eye colors.

He doesn't talk about his private life much, so you don't know. Do you ask him?

Quote:
What kind of personal items does the NPC in the 3rd bunk have in his locker?

Are you rumaging through it? Now? With the rest of the platoon in the room?
Quote:
What about the guy/gal in the 4th bunk? How old are they?

Roll Perception to guess her age and weight, unless you want to stroll up and ask?
Quote:
What's there father's middle name?

Not knowing her, how would you know?
Quote:
What time do we have chow each day?

Chow time. It's on the schedules I handed out right after morning PT, which follows Wake-up call at 0-dark thrity.
Quote:
What color is our toothbrush and is it manual, a droid appliance, sonic, or what?

What kind did you buy? Ok, subtract X credits...unless you want the deluxe model with gum massager, it's X*5
Quote:
How about ration bars: what color?

Everything issued is Khaki...clothes, toilet paper, food...it's a marine thing.
Quote:
what do they taste like?

Are you eating one to find out? Ok, give me a stamina roll... asuming you survive I'll describe the flavor. It's sort of a rotten egg, sawdusty, ash like, stale motor oil taste...with a hint of garlic for flavor.
Quote:
how much do they mass?

about 0.05kg for just the bar... the complete MRE kit is 0.1kg
Quote:
what is the caloric content and nutritional information and how is that balanced for the human and non-human species?

After turning the package over in your hand time and again, running under a biometric scanner (which can not identify the contents) and examining in the ships laboratory you find none of this marked on the plain khaki wraper. After asking your CO, he respond "What do I look like, a fajooking cook? All you need to know is it will keep you alive. If you're that concerned send an inquiry in to the DOD." Following this advice and sending in an inquiry and waiting the required 4-6 weeks the response informs you they are unable to answer your question as you failed to fill out form NI-232-DD-C0.1 Find it enclosed with this response, fill it out, return it, and wait four to six weeks for processing. Do you wish to fill it out? Give me a bureacracy roll Smile.

A lot of those details were already on hand (especially itemized equipment weights for encumbrance purposes - my military game was very strict about such details) others were the result of such questions in the last group. Some of the trivial questions I can deal with, even have planned for (acytually made up a quick Hair, Eye, Appearance chart for D6 NPS based off one from a game called Mekton, I used to love it).

Quote:
But I'm not gettting the impression that these answers are important to the players or that resolving these questions is adding to the Star Wars experience.

You are correct, with this current group it's not that the questions or the answers are important - they are just being jerks about it. Even for those I have answers handy for, they just find five more. Which, as I said, I told them I will not continue to tolerate. It may be fun for them, but it's not fun for me.
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