The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Psychological Effects
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Psychological Effects Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great discussion here.

Quote:
The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

It is logical to conclude that conversely, the Force can also have a weak influence on the strong-willed...

garhkal wrote:
Whill.. Do you not have enemy Dark jedi use force powers such as affect mind, control mind etc on pcs?

It's not common that it comes up, but I do not disallow those powers from working on PCs. Sorry, I didn't think of stating that because I thought that was a given. The very purpose of those powers (well one of the uses of affect mind) is to override a character's free will (which for PCs comes from the player's will).

However, in 1e there was no Willpower skill and Force powers were resisted with the Perception attribute. I see Perception as including force of personality, so I moved Willpower to Perception where it already had been inherent in the attribute in 1e. So in my game the Willpower skill (or base Perception) can be used to resist Force powers wherever Perception can in RAW (and of course CPs and FPs can boost the roll). So in my game it may be more rare that those powers would work well on a PC, but I don't disallow it.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
It is logical to conclude that conversely, the Force can also have a weak influence on the strong-willed...

Seems fair.

Quote:
However, in 1e there was no Willpower skill and Force powers were resisted with the Perception attribute. I see Perception as including force of personality, so I moved Willpower to Perception where it already had been inherent in the attribute in 1e. So in my game the Willpower skill (or base Perception) can be used to resist Force powers wherever Perception can in RAW (and of course CPs and FPs can boost the roll). So in my game it may be more rare that those powers would work well on a PC, but I don't disallow it.

My thinking was that the dividing line between Knowledge and Perception was internal vs. external, in that Knowledge was things that you had learned or that you knew about yourself, whereas Perception was things you understood about others or the world around you. With that as a guideline, I left Willpower where it was and moved Intimidation to Perception.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with crmcneill's interpretation overall, but I just leave the skills where they are. Mostly because I feel that the remainder of the knowledge skills are not as valuable as other skills (this is highly GM-depenent, of course).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I left Willpower where it was and moved Intimidation to Perception.

Naaman wrote:
I just leave the skills where they are. Mostly because I feel that the remainder of the knowledge skills are not as valuable as other skills (this is highly GM-depenent, of course).

I moved Willpower and Intimidation to Perception, but moved First Aid to Knowledge. I was getting tired of droid or starship technological genius engineer types also defaulting to being the kick@ss team medic. Yes, the extremely advanced state of medicine in the Star Wars galaxy does use a lot of technology, but the First Aid skill also includes non-technologically-based knowledge as well (there are non-medpack uses of the skill). So it makes sense to me of classifying it as a general knowledge type of skill. First Aid is an extremely useful skill in this game with a lot of combat and other dangerous actions.

And yes, it is up to the GM to make Knowledge in general valuable, and I personally try to make Knowledge skills important in every single adventure. Based on four full years of heavy experience playing 1e (multiple simultaneous player groups and campaigns), it seemed obvious to me that in 2e they just put Willpower and Intimidation in Knowledge just because it was a common dumping ground stats, and the mentality behind official game mechanics catering to lazy players and GMs who don't place enough value in Knowledge just irks me so I changed it. I do rationalize some aspects of RAW with the 'that's the way it's always been', but these 2e skills going in Knowledge just spat in the face of the spirit of 1e. Put the skills wherever you want, value or devalue any attributes anyway you want, but one aspect of willpower was already in Perception in RAW, and in 2e they didn't change that so you illogically resist Force powers with the perception attribute, but resist non-Force forms of coercion with a Knowledge skill? That never made sense to me. And Intimidation is a influence skill, so it being in Knowledge is a head-scratcher... until you realize what their actual motive was in doing that.

Back in 1e, I had moved Beast Riding to Perception because the mechanic of controlling a creature by overcoming its orneriness is an influence/interaction thing, so yeah Perception is very important in my game (but not at the expense of Knowledge). Using Perception skills is where the most actual roleplaying comes in, and that is real important to me.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of actual roleplaying and "related" skills, I've always found that to be somewhat of a conundrum.

A particular player may not be a smooth talker or great orator, etc, but his character might be. In cases like this, I feel that the "role" playing doesn't represent the "roll" playing. And in this case, the dice should take precedence, since its what the character is about and invested in.

With regards to psychological effects, if we are going to reduce character choices to being determined by dice rolls, I suppose it's acceptable for their influence rolls to work the same way regardless of any other factors, if the roll is a success, then the targets are compelled to act as the PC wishes).


Last edited by Naaman on Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
On the topic of acual roleplaying and "related" skills, I've always found that to be somewhat of a cunundrum (sp?).

A particular player may not be a smooth talker or great orator, etc, but his character might be. In cases like this, I feel that the "role" playing doesn't represent the "roll" playing. And in this case, the dice should take precedence, since its what the character is about and invested in.

With regards to psychological effects, if we are going to reduce character choices to being determined by dice rolls, I suppose it's acceptable for their influence rolls to work the same way regardless of any other factors, if the roll is a success, then the targets are compelled to act as the PC wishes).


Do you apply that logic in reverse, where if the player is a great say Orator/charmer, but his or her PC is not, his roll overrides his ROLE playing??
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:
On the topic of acual roleplaying and "related" skills, I've always found that to be somewhat of a cunundrum (sp?).

A particular player may not be a smooth talker or great orator, etc, but his character might be. In cases like this, I feel that the "role" playing doesn't represent the "roll" playing. And in this case, the dice should take precedence, since its what the character is about and invested in.

With regards to psychological effects, if we are going to reduce character choices to being determined by dice rolls, I suppose it's acceptable for their influence rolls to work the same way regardless of any other factors, if the roll is a success, then the targets are compelled to act as the PC wishes).

Do you apply that logic in reverse, where if the player is a great say Orator/charmer, but his or her PC is not, his roll overrides his ROLE playing??

Yes, in my game a great cover story can possibly still be flubbed with a horrible roll, and a outstanding roll can possibly still be flubbed with a horrible con. Per RAW, the GM is supposed to factor both the roll and the roleplaying into the determination of success. If the player is an awful orator/charmer/leader/liar then they probably shouldn't be playing the face character of the group.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Do you apply that logic in reverse, where if the player is a great say Orator/charmer, but his or her PC is not, his roll overrides his ROLE playing??

I certainly would. If a player is trying to sub in his abilities with those of the character, it would be metagaming.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
On the topic of acual roleplaying and "related" skills, I've always found that to be somewhat of a conundrum.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

Quote:
A particular player may not be a smooth talker or great orator, etc, but his character might be. In cases like this, I feel that the "role" playing doesn't represent the "roll" playing. And in this case, the dice should take precedence, since its what the character is about and invested in.

With regards to psychological effects, if we are going to reduce character choices to being determined by dice rolls, I suppose it's acceptable for their influence rolls to work the same way regardless of any other factors, if the roll is a success, then the targets are compelled to act as the PC wishes).

My original intent in setting up rules for psychological effects was entirely based around whether or not the character's were in control of themselves, which in turn was based on how well they rolled Willpower to resist. Success meant your character was angry or afraid but still in control, and you, the player, could roleplay that aspect of your character's behavior. On the other hand, failure, meant that you were not in control of your character since the character had temporarily lost control of himself, so you had to roleplay the results.[/quote]
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I moved Willpower and Intimidation to Perception, but moved First Aid to Knowledge. I was getting tired of droid or starship technological genius engineer types also defaulting to being the kick@ss team medic. Yes, the extremely advanced state of medicine in the Star Wars galaxy does use a lot of technology, but the First Aid skill also includes non-technologically-based knowledge as well (there are non-medpack uses of the skill). So it makes sense to me of classifying it as a general knowledge type of skill. First Aid is an extremely useful skill in this game with a lot of combat and other dangerous actions.

I'm tempted to move First Aid to Perception and Forgery to Technical for much the same reasoning.

Quote:
And yes, it is up to the GM to make Knowledge in general valuable, and I personally try to make Knowledge skills important in every single adventure. Based on four full years of heavy experience playing 1e (multiple simultaneous player groups and campaigns), it seemed obvious to me that in 2e they just put Willpower and Intimidation in Knowledge just because it was a common dumping ground stats, and the mentality behind official game mechanics catering to lazy players and GMs who don't place enough value in Knowledge just irks me so I changed it. I do rationalize some aspects of RAW with the 'that's the way it's always been', but these 2e skills going in Knowledge just spat in the face of the spirit of 1e. Put the skills wherever you want, value or devalue any attributes anyway you want, but one aspect of willpower was already in Perception in RAW, and in 2e they didn't change that so you illogically resist Force powers with the perception attribute, but resist non-Force forms of coercion with a Knowledge skill? That never made sense to me. And Intimidation is a influence skill, so it being in Knowledge is a head-scratcher... until you realize what their actual motive was in doing that.

That was a big part of my motivation for making the Knowledge bonus rule, where Knowledge rolls could be used to boost the character's "practical" skill rolls. It's also why I've rejected a variety of suggestions to simply use the Knowledge skill dice to generate flat bonuses without requiring a dice roll: I want the Knowledge attribute and skills to be used (I.e. rolled) just like all the other attributes.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I moved Willpower and Intimidation to Perception, but moved First Aid to Knowledge. I was getting tired of droid or starship technological genius engineer types also defaulting to being the kick@ss team medic. Yes, the extremely advanced state of medicine in the Star Wars galaxy does use a lot of technology, but the First Aid skill also includes non-technologically-based knowledge as well (there are non-medpack uses of the skill). So it makes sense to me of classifying it as a general knowledge type of skill. First Aid is an extremely useful skill in this game with a lot of combat and other dangerous actions.

I'm tempted to move First Aid to Perception and Forgery to Technical for much the same reasoning.


I still see first aid being more technical tha perception.. But why forgery moving to tech vice per??
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because in a high-tech universe, proper forgery will require a precision manufacturing component, such as knowing the proper techniques to create fake IDs and the like.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I. Can see that...

"Its an older code, but it checks out."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes some sense, but then wouldn't using tech more be under Mechanical vice Technical?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
That makes some sense, but then wouldn't using tech more be under Mechanical vice Technical?

There is a certain degree of overlap in all attributes. Technical seems a combination of Knowledge and Dexterity, in that you have to know how things fit together and have the manual dexterity to make things fit together. Ultimately, we have to draw a line somewhere, in that, while a skill could plausibly fit in more than one attribute, you have to pick one. The only way around that (per the RAW) would be to make it an Advanced Skill with prerequisites from multiple attributes.

As far as the dividing line between Tech and Mech, I would ask whether you are using an object for its intended purpose (in which case Mech), or are you taking it apart and/or putting it back together (Tech). Since Forgery involves using tools to fabricate something, I would say it falls under Tech.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 5 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0