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DougRed4
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 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:11 pm Post subject: Starting Jedi |
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Besides making a new Force Attribute, has anyone come up with other ways to allow starting Jedi a way to be more competent in other stuff?
I've got a new padawan character (who will be trained by our Jedi Knight), but if you use the RAW, both starting Jedi Knight and starting padawan start off with the same 18D.
Our Jedi had to start out with his other stats being pretty weak (2D Perception, 2D Knowledge, etc.), all to be decent with his Force abilities.
Not that long ago I gave him a +2D bump in each of his Force skills, being as he was just too weak (rationalizing that - being as he'd been frozen for millenia - it took awhile for his abilities to revert back to normal.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't give him a bit of a boost in some of his other stats as well. The Jedi have so many roleplaying restrictions already, that I feel this balances out some of their power.
But then I don't want him to be a combat monster that outshines the rest of the party so significantly, either.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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That's the thing doug.. Any bonus you give to jedi, starting out or not, will eventually overpower them in regards to everyone else.
One way to limit the padawan in relation to the starting minor jedi, is only give 1 of the 3 force skills to them starting out (con/sen/alt), and no master to teach them.
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Quetzacotl
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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All you really have to do is limiting / houseruling LSC. With that, you can basically give them free points in the 3 power skills at start (depending on how you changed LSC).
As far as our group can see, there really are no powers that overpower other chars, unless they are on a really high level (like 6D or more in the force skills which already take a long time).
Right now, all our Jedi character are far weaker then the normal non-Jedi character and it looks like it would still take a lot of time untill they are as good as them (at least in terms of combat power). |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well we nerfed LSC, and the way we do it, Jedi get to start with 18D and they get one Force skill for free. They can use some of their 18D to buy other Force skills, and, after purchasing the skill, they can use some of their 7D to increase the Force skills.
Also, for their free Force skill and any dice they purchased from their attribute total, they get three Force powers. Otherwise (and henceforth) they get one new power per D in Force skills. They can buy individual powers with CPs, however. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:55 am Post subject: |
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So basically force using pcs get 19d starting out vice 18 for all others.
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thedemonapostle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:35 am Post subject: |
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never thought that starting jedi characters were weak in comparison to other characters. quite the opposite. having just come over from AD&D 2nd, i felt starting jedi were like high level dual classed paladins with a +5 holy avenger. and everyone else was a level one or two nobody. yeah their starting attributes and skills can seem lacking but after just a few game sessions theres a significant unbalance in party power levels. i wasnt the only one that felt this. several of my GM's then felt this to be the case and made it extremely difficult for jedi to gain powers and a properly functioning light saber. it was so bad in fact that the only way for any new jedi characters to start with a light saber was if they played a pre-made template that had one as part of the template, otherwise it was almost guaranteed that they would never have one.
as a GM i ruled that any increase a jedi character would get over standard as a starting character the non-jedi characters would get an equal amount of increase of power.
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
Seems like a reasonable give and take. What sort of learning costs do you have?
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So basically force using pcs get 19d starting out vice 18 for all others. |
Yes. Not to mention the restrictions on conduct and all that; I once played with a group (we were all Jedi) who defeated a storm trooper by "incapacitating" him and then proceeded to restrain him and take him everywhere with them throughout the galaxy, explaining that:
"We can't kill him because he's unable to defend himself. And if we let him go, he'll try to kill us. And if we drop him off on an Imperial world, he'll link back up with the empire and tell them where we are and how to find us, and if we drop him on a deserted planet, he'll starve to death, and that would be like murder or manslaughter."
Anyway, codes of conduct are (in my opinion) the best way to balance gameplay. Numerical restrictions or whatnot only serve to restrict ease of play and development of concept.
Consider the conundrum that Anakin's player had to deal with... all that power, but ultimately, he lost his character. Han Solo, on the other hand, was in it all for himself to begin with, and got to keep on playing the whole time (granted, he had a change of heart at the end, but leading up to the movie, he was still a "PC"). |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| thedemonapostle wrote: | never thought that starting jedi characters were weak in comparison to other characters. quite the opposite. having just come over from AD&D 2nd, i felt starting jedi were like high level dual classed paladins with a +5 holy avenger. and everyone else was a level one or two nobody. yeah their starting attributes and skills can seem lacking but after just a few game sessions theres a significant unbalance in party power levels. i wasnt the only one that felt this. several of my GM's then felt this to be the case and made it extremely difficult for jedi to gain powers and a properly functioning light saber. it was so bad in fact that the only way for any new jedi characters to start with a light saber was if they played a pre-made template that had one as part of the template, otherwise it was almost guaranteed that they would never have one.
as a GM i ruled that any increase a jedi character would get over standard as a starting character the non-jedi characters would get an equal amount of increase of power. |
Interesting. I've found that until a Jedi reaches about 4D in his Force skills, he's pretty much hit and miss. Let me rephrase that: from 1D to 2D+2, we're dealing with an almost useless character: their weapon deals blaster damage (5D max), but you have to be in melee range to get that much. But your opponent (say... a Gammorean), is rolling like, 7D damage with a vibro axe. A Jedi has most of his attributes starting at 2D if he wants any kind of ability in the Force, or else he must find a teacher to learn any Force skills he does not already know.
The fact is, if you take LSC out of the equation, a Jedi boils down to just a collection of skills like any other character. Spending CPs on Force skills is the same as spending them on mundane skills. And they Force skills come at the expense of mundane skills. So, yeah, your Jedi might be telepathic, but he can't fly the stupid air speeder to save his life. And don't even think about putting him in the gunner's seat on the party's space ship.
So, we've found that nerfing LSC solves every single problem we have (though, even with RAW, we rarely have problems because our Jedi players actually play as Jedi, only using combat as a means to defend themselves or innocents).
Anyway, the overall outlook of the group may have a serious impact on what is considered "balanced." All of our player choose NOT to play a Jedi specifically because they don't want the behavior restrictions on their character. That, to me, speaks volumes, even when "ultimate power" is on the table, they choose "freedom" instead. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
I like this... I might try it. |
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
so rather than each d in ONE force power costing 1d, they get triple the amount.. So for 2d in costs off their attribues, a force user effectively gets 22d starting out +7d in skill bonuses... Seems like any non force user is almost relegated to a 2nd class citizen in that way.
| Quote: | Yes. Not to mention the restrictions on conduct and all that; I once played with a group (we were all Jedi) who defeated a storm trooper by "incapacitating" him and then proceeded to restrain him and take him everywhere with them throughout the galaxy, explaining that:
"We can't kill him because he's unable to defend himself. And if we let him go, he'll try to kill us. And if we drop him off on an Imperial world, he'll link back up with the empire and tell them where we are and how to find us, and if we drop him on a deserted planet, he'll starve to death, and that would be like murder or manslaughter."
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With how hard it seems some here make it to even get a DSP warning, that is not much of a cruch to balance it out.
| Quote: | | The fact is, if you take LSC out of the equation, a Jedi boils down to just a collection of skills like any other character. Spending CPs on Force skills is the same as spending them on mundane skills. And they Force skills come at the expense of mundane skills. So, yeah, your Jedi might be telepathic, but he can't fly the stupid air speeder to save his life. And don't even think about putting him in the gunner's seat on the party's space ship. |
Enhance attribute on the skill needed (mechanical for those 2 examples) followed by Concentration. 4d control is all that is needed to routinely get +6d bonus for that one action.
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Tupteq
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Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Tupteq wrote: | My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
Seems like a reasonable give and take. What sort of learning costs do you have? |
I'm using advanced skill costs, so 2x current dice. RAW say that Force skills cost 1x current dice if you have a teacher and 2x current dice without a teacher. I just used the second cost, not matter if PC has teacher or not.
Due to costs (and training time requirements) my only Jedi PC seems to be slightly behind the rest of team - his force skills are AFAIR 3D+1, 2D+2, 4D and he started from 0, 0, 3D (wild alter talent). Rest of group have one or two skills at 7D, few around 6D and some advanced skills (medicine, brainwashing, starfighter engineering). Jedi is about 1D behind. |
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Tupteq wrote: | My solution is to allow trade 1D of attribute for 3D in Force skills and make Force skills learning costs as they was advanced skills. (doesn't matter if you have a teacher or not).
This change allows player start with higher levels in Force skills (e.g. all skills at 2D for only 2D of attributes) without making character handicapped in all other subjects. This initial boost is then moderated by higher learning costs. |
so rather than each d in ONE force power costing 1d, they get triple the amount.. So for 2d in costs off their attribues, a force user effectively gets 22d starting out +7d in skill bonuses... Seems like any non force user is almost relegated to a 2nd class citizen in that way. |
As I said in previous post. My Jedi PC seems to be slightly behind the rest (and it didn't change much during half a year of play).
I think treating force skills like attributes during character creation is total mistake. 1D in Force skill is IMO much less powerful than 1D in attribute. And if we compare improvement costs during game it's 10 to 1! To raise an attribute from 3D to 3D+1 yo uneed to pay 30CP, to raise Force skill you need only 3CP (or 6CP without teacher or using my HR).
So, why Force skills during character creation cost as much as attribute, but later like normal skills?
Also, my conception is somehow similar to Force attribute - if you had Force attribute at 1D, you had effectively all Force skills at 1D. So I don't think your calculations of 22D make sense. Especially that I playtested my rules and conclusions are opposite (Jedi seems to be weaker than the rest of PCs). |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Some really good feedback here. Thanks for all the discussion.
It seems to me they didn't want Jedi to be overpowered, especially as compared to all of the other character archetypes, so they handicapped them with regards to their other abilities. Sure they can concentrate to overcome this, but I don't know that this accurately reflects what we saw in the films.
| garhkal wrote: | That's the thing doug.. Any bonus you give to jedi, starting out or not, will eventually overpower them in regards to everyone else.
One way to limit the padawan in relation to the starting minor jedi, is only give 1 of the 3 force skills to them starting out (con/sen/alt), and no master to teach them. |
I think I'm okay with a Jedi Knight (which is what our existing character is) being "overpowered" as compared to the others. He's got enough restrictions on him that I don't really have a problem with him being "better" in some things.
Our new padawan, though, who will likely be a young man 14-15 years old, will probably be fairly done by starting him out with 18D spread around between his various stats and abilities.
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