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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, my proposition was always that Anakin's Force attribute was in the 6D or 7D range, way beyond norm for any sentient species.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just base it on pip count? If 0D is the Attribute for non-FS, and 1D is the bare minimum for Force Sensitive, then just convert the attribute to pips, with each pip equaling 1,000 in midichlorian count. A non-FS (with an attribute of less than 1D) would have 1,000-2,000, while a slightly elevated count of 3,000 would indicate the bare minimum available to be teachable in manipulating the Force. The other end of the spectrum (Anakin at 7D) would convert to 21,000 (7D = 21 pips) and his reading would be off the scale over 20,000.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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griff
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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That would give a nine year old pod racing slave a starting pool of 7D in force skills? Shouldn't the higher the count reduce the cost of up grading the skills reduce the training time, and reduce the difficulty, and in 2E you got to choose a new force skill with every pip, maybe double that with a high count? It seems more reasonable that midi-chorlians allow easier access to the force not supply "more" force during character ceation. I think I'll post some scale when I have time to work it out, hopefully soon.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | That would give a nine year old pod racing slave a starting pool of 7D in force skills? Shouldn't the higher the count reduce the cost of up grading the skills reduce the training time, and reduce the difficulty, and in 2E you got to choose a new force skill with every pip, maybe double that with a high count? It seems more reasonable that midi-chorlians allow easier access to the force not supply "more" force during character ceation. I think I'll post some scale when I have time to work it out, hopefully soon. |
If you could clarify a little; I'm not quite sure what you are saying.
Speaking for myself, bringing up midichlorians just muddies the water. Any discussion of Anakin automatically differs from a discussion of normal PCs. He will always be an anomaly, an aberration. If anyone brings him up, it is best as a GM (IMO) to just say, "Your character isn't him."
Anakin would have a starting attribute of 7D (which would be a base, not a pool, as a pool generally means that the dice value would be split between Control, Sense and Alter). 7D would be a rating of his potential to consciously use the Force (in the form of Force skills), but he would need to be taught them first. Until he is taught, he is just a nine-year-old pod racer who happens to be to the Force what Wookiees and Esoomians are to the Strength attribute. Once he learns skills, however, his attribute would be treated as the starting base, to which his skill dice are added. The "easier access to the Force" is presented in his base attribute, in that once he starts learning skills, his CP cost to reach 8D in Control, Sense and Alter will be much lower than that of a character who started learning with a 3D attribute.
That being said, its obvious that his high connection to the Force does boost his other skills in the form of intuitive insight. What manner that would take in a rule is unknown, but certainly open to discussion. Just speaking off the top of my head, I would allow a character with a Force attribute but no skills to roll his attribute to generate a bonus on the Enhance Attribute table, which would then be applied to his normal skill rolls. This would be a free action and thus not incur a MAP.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2259
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | | A thought that occurred to me while reading this thread (as I don't like the idea of having to take some of the initial 18D allocated to attributes, as it makes any Jedi-type characters too weak starting out): |
But under the RAW, starting Jedi-type characters are already losing 2D-3D from their starting attributes. This simply rectifies that inequity by giving Jedi-type characters a stronger starting position with regard to being able to use Force skills. |
Yep, and that's why I have such an issue with the RAW in this regard. And I think many others do, too. In fact, it's part of why this very discussion is taking place, I think. Starting Jedi are way, way, way too weak (their the weakest members of the party) starting out, in a meta attempt to 'balance' them with regards to the rest of the party.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | What if a Force attribute only replaced Perception for Force Sensitive characters? There's a few skills (Like Hide) that are harder to rationalize, but many of them actually fit pretty well with one's inherent ability to control and use the Force. |
Because Perception is a measurement of what a person sees with their physical senses. Just because a person can sense things through the Force doesn't mean that they go blind. An ability to use Force skills can always augment normal senses, or substitute for them in emergencies. |
The Force Sensitive Miraluka in our group doesn't see at all, yet sees and perceives better than just about everyone via the Force (he even sees through walls).
And my suggestion wasn't that any characters would go blind. Just that the Force could be a stat that substitutes for one's Perception. Most of the Force-type stuff falls under Perception anyway (when you have to find an attribute to sync it up with), and it would alleviate the problem of having to spread those initial dice out, not causing the "butter spread over too much bread" problem that starting Jedi have in this game.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16172
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Yep, and that's why I have such an issue with the RAW in this regard. And I think many others do, too. In fact, it's part of why this very discussion is taking place, I think. Starting Jedi are way, way, way too weak (their the weakest members of the party) starting out, in a meta attempt to 'balance' them with regards to the rest of the party. |
But it is actually fairer to the non-FS characters to handicap the Jedi; I just think WEG took it too far. If adding Force as an attribute (and allowing non-FS characters to put 0D in it), you have balance in the sense that some people have better reflexes, some people are smarter, some people are better drivers, some people are more perceptive, some people are stronger, some people are better at repairs, and finally, some people just happen to be strong in the Force. Considering the advantages conferred by being able to use Force skills, I have no problem having Jedi start off with lower attributes.
| Quote: | | The Force Sensitive Miraluka in our group doesn't see at all, yet sees and perceives better than just about everyone via the Force (he even sees through walls). |
That sounds like a house rule to me. I considered something similar to making the Miralukan Force Sight be like True Seeing, but I never pursued it. Based purely on the description on the Miraluka template, it just seems as though the Force acts as a sixth sense in that it allows him to see normally even though he is "blind". This doesn't mean that the Force replaces his Perception, just that he perceives through alternate means.
| Quote: | | And my suggestion wasn't that any characters would go blind. Just that the Force could be a stat that substitutes for one's Perception. Most of the Force-type stuff falls under Perception anyway (when you have to find an attribute to sync it up with), and it would alleviate the problem of having to spread those initial dice out, not causing the "butter spread over too much bread" problem that starting Jedi have in this game. |
Perception is primarily a measurement of how a character process the information from their senses, not just the senses themselves. The Force may enhance senses to perceive in better detail, and it may offer intuitive insight to the character's mental process, but that would be better represented as a bonus to Perception, not a replacement for Perception itself. The Force would augment a character's mind, not supplant it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Why not just base it on pip count? If 0D is the Attribute for non-FS, and 1D is the bare minimum for Force Sensitive, then just convert the attribute to pips, with each pip equaling 1,000 in midichlorian count. A non-FS (with an attribute of less than 1D) would have 1,000-2,000, while a slightly elevated count of 3,000 would indicate the bare minimum available to be teachable in manipulating the Force. The other end of the spectrum (Anakin at 7D) would convert to 21,000 (7D = 21 pips) and his reading would be off the scale over 20,000. |
It's a possible method. But I do have a couple of issue with it.
First off, the linear progression does limit out scale a bit. If we find out later than in Lucas' notes or some such Anakin is listed as having a count of 50,000 or 100,000 we get stuck with a huge Force stat.
Also I think we might need to tweak the values a little. If someone who is a minor Force Sensitive has a count of 5000, that would be 1D+2 on the 1/1000 scale. That seems a bit high. And since 15,000 or so seems the upper limit for a human, that would end up being 5D. If we assume the average Jedi has a rating of 10,000 (midpoint between 5000 and 15000) that would be 3D+1, which seems a bit high to me.
I'd kinda like to see minor Force Sensitivity (5000) at around 1D; A typical Jedi (say 10000) at 2D; and a human max (about 15000) at 4D. But that's just what I'd like to see. It look likes the dice code double for every 5000 midis. That even works for Annie. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to worry too much about midichlorians. For the purposes of a Force attribute, if any of my players insist on knowing their midi-count, I'll just use my pip conversion method. Apart from that, the attribute is what applies to gameplay, and the midichlorians are just fluff.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I'm not going to worry too much about midichlorians. For the purposes of a Force attribute, if any of my players insist on knowing their midi-count, I'll just use my pip conversion method. Apart from that, the attribute is what applies to gameplay, and the midichlorians are just fluff. |
Fair enough. Not like midis make any difference.
As far as the Force stat goes do we have a consensus that the average Jedi should have a 2D, rating, and that 4D is human max?
Oh, and seeing how Anakin having "Jedi reflexes" didn't seem all that surprising to Qui-Gon, should we allow those with dice in Force to have a minor Force power per D? D20 gave Force Sensitives access to a handful of Control and Sense Powers. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | As far as the Force stat goes do we have a consensus that the average Jedi should have a 2D, rating, and that 4D is human max? |
Actually, based on the template conversions I did a few posts back, where the Young Jedi converts to a Force Attribute of 3D and the Failed Jedi to 2D, I'd say that the average Jedi would have 3D-4D, with 1D-2D being the range for the almost-Jedi who ended up in the service corps, and 5D-6D being the range for exceptional beings like Yoda or species which have natural Force sensitivity.
| Quote: | | Oh, and seeing how Anakin having "Jedi reflexes" didn't seem all that surprising to Qui-Gon, should we allow those with dice in Force to have a minor Force power per D? D20 gave Force Sensitives access to a handful of Control and Sense Powers. |
I agree there should be some way for characters with a Force attribute to use that skill untrained. If we were still using the old 1E method of simply allowing Jedi access to all Force powers available under the Aegis of the different Force skills, I would just say that attempting to use powers untrained by rolling the attribute only would roll at a penalty of -2D or 3D.
Under the current RAW, however, things get a little more complicated...
Under the current EU concept, Force sensitives do tend to have varying degrees of talent depending on the nature of the Force power being used (The Horn family trait is a good example).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Actually, based on the template conversions I did a few posts back, where the Young Jedi converts to a Force Attribute of 3D and the Failed Jedi to 2D, I'd say that the average Jedi would have 3D-4D, with 1D-2D being the range for the almost-Jedi who ended up in the service corps, and 5D-6D being the range for exceptional beings like Yoda or species which have natural Force sensitivity. |
I think 3D-4D is a bit much for the typical Jedi. Or are you assuming that they raised the stat some over thier lifetime?
[quote]
I agree there should be some way for characters with a Force attribute to use that skill untrained. If we were still using the old 1E method of simply allowing Jedi access to all Force powers available under the Aegis of the different Force skills, I would just say that attempting to use powers untrained by rolling the attribute only would roll at a penalty of -2D or 3D.
Under the current RAW, however, things get a little more complicated...
Under the current EU concept, Force sensitives do tend to have varying degrees of talent depending on the nature of the Force power being used (The Horn family trait is a good example).[/quote
I was thinking of a lgical approach (dangerous with Star Wars), of considering first which powers we see Anakin used in TPM, and then comipling a list of those Control and Sense powers with fairly low difficulty. Basically the sort of stuff that someone with a couple of D in Force could actually be able to pull off. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I think 3D-4D is a bit much for the typical Jedi. Or are you assuming that they raised the stat some over thier lifetime? |
That would be my guess. I wouldn't let any starting character have a Force of more than 3D unless they had a very convincing story as to why, but what with the way CP costs rise as skill level increases, at some point it becomes more cost effective to pay the CP cost to improve an attribute rather than improve all three skills.
| Quote: | | I was thinking of a lgical approach (dangerous with Star Wars), of considering first which powers we see Anakin used in TPM, and then comipling a list of those Control and Sense powers with fairly low difficulty. Basically the sort of stuff that someone with a couple of D in Force could actually be able to pull off. |
I think it should mostly be limited to Sense Powers, as Whill suggested, since Control includes an aspect of conscious manipulation.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: |
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The rule concept I'm considering is allowing characters to improve attributes as normal up to their species maximum, then if they wish to improve the attribute even further, they have to pay double the normal CP cost. This would, for example, cap humans at a Dex of 4D, but allow exceptional individuals (Imperial Guards, for example) to improve beyond normal human expectations.
Force would be the same, with a 4D attribute max (for pretty much every species lacking some form of innate Force sensitivity), but the possibility for improving beyond that max if one paid the CP cost. Yoda, for example, with 900 years to work with, could conceivably have increased his Force to 5D or 6D using this method. He might also have been from a species with a latent connection, so his species max may have been higher than 4D.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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gavin storm
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Its fun to have a character, learn how to use the Force without anyone actually telling hin he is FS (Force Senseitive). Can be done, with clever/opportunistic storytelling by a GM.
Depends on the player as to how quickly they pick up on something strange happening to them. With my very first character, it was a repeating theme that seemed to crop up in nearly every mission he went on. Like an echo, or as the character put it a ripple. Bad thing usually happened when the character ignored the echo.
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Gavin Storm
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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It is also possible that the rules about individual Force powers requiring a teacher be thrown out, and that, if learning a power untrained, you get one for every two you would've gotten under a Force skill. That way, characters with an attribute would be able to pick up minimal powers and use them, so long as they roleplayed them as if they didn't know about "the Force", but rather "intuition" or something similar.
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