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A Force attribute?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to differ from you and RAW about attributes changing, as I am vehemently opposed to PCs ever increasing entire Attribute values after play begins for my game. As I've expressed elsewhere, the RAW rules for doing so are severely broken (being as they involve a random factor in the cost to do so, and the basic fact that increasing attributes in RAW increases every skill under it without the cost being related to the number of skills under the attribute). It just seems good enough to settle for the attributes as you allocate when you create the character, so increasing them later is potentially game-breaking and ultimately unnecessary. If the Force attribute is raw natural ability and the skills represent experience and training, there seems to be no need to increase the Force attribute value after play begins. And the species attribute maxes should be good enough for any PC, and most NPCs conform to that standard as well. In my game, the only exceptions to species maxes are very rare NPCs.

I agree midichlorian counts are insignificant fluff, but if needed, a simple formula should be good enough and move on.

I'm a bit disturbed by the common need I encounter for SW GMs to make rules that the film characters absolutely must conform to. Should the film characters be considered? Definitely yes. But ultimately, the purpose of game mechanics are to simulate your SW universe for primarily original characters. Do you really need to stat out Yoda's species to tie down his max Force attribute? Do you really need rules strictly governing the Chosen One and his offspring? I say no. I think cr's general statements of Anakin or Yoda having 6D-7D in the Force attribute are good enough for a sense of a general scale for the discussion and development of rules governing PCs, but it ultimately doesn't matter what film character stats are specifically. Even as a 10 years-old slave flying a pod racer, Anakin was a very specifically unique prodigy in the Star Wars galaxy.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
The Force Sensitive Miraluka in our group doesn't see at all, yet sees and perceives better than just about everyone via the Force (he even sees through walls).

That sounds like a house rule to me. I considered something similar to making the Miralukan Force Sight be like True Seeing, but I never pursued it. Based purely on the description on the Miraluka template, it just seems as though the Force acts as a sixth sense in that it allows him to see normally even though he is "blind". This doesn't mean that the Force replaces his Perception, just that he perceives through alternate means.

Quote:
And my suggestion wasn't that any characters would go blind. Just that the Force could be a stat that substitutes for one's Perception. Most of the Force-type stuff falls under Perception anyway (when you have to find an attribute to sync it up with), and it would alleviate the problem of having to spread those initial dice out, not causing the "butter spread over too much bread" problem that starting Jedi have in this game.

Perception is primarily a measurement of how a character process the information from their senses, not just the senses themselves. The Force may enhance senses to perceive in better detail, and it may offer intuitive insight to the character's mental process, but that would be better represented as a bonus to Perception, not a replacement for Perception itself. The Force would augment a character's mind, not supplant it.


I realize what Perception is, and was only floating an idea to suggest a possible way to improve things. To me things like having to re-do an entire character sheet (by adding in an attribute that isn't already in the game) would be much more difficult than trying to replace something existing. Not that doing so is that big of a deal, but adding a new stat effectively makes all existing current character sheets obsolete (so that was part of my thought process to still add in a new attribute). It's no big deal, as it's not something I'm doing for my game anyway (though it is something I've considered).

We have used no house rules for our Miraluka character. His character sheet reads with all of the stuff from the D6 Holocron (which spells out the WEG sources their info in drawn from). I'm not sure where he got the idea of seeing through walls, but he showed me something (in print) at the table that looked like an official source. I'll have to try to find out what that was.

Whill wrote:
I'm a bit disturbed by the common need I encounter for SW GMs to make rules that the film characters absolutely must conform to. Should the film characters be considered? Definitely yes. But ultimately, the purpose of game mechanics are to simulate your SW universe for primarily original characters. Do you really need to stat out Yoda's species to tie down his max Force attribute? Do you really need rules strictly governing the Chosen One and his offspring? I say no. I think cr's general statements of Anakin or Yoda having 6D-7D in the Force attribute are good enough for a sense of a general scale for the discussion and development of rules governing PCs, but it ultimately doesn't matter what film character stats are specifically. Even as a 10 years-old slave flying a pod racer, Anakin was a very specifically unique prodigy in the Star Wars galaxy.


Being as it's rare for my PCs to run into somebody from the movies, it's not a huge deal to me. But I very definitely am modeling my campaign after what we see in the movies. So it stands to reason that the world should have some semblance of logic and consistency that simulates (for lack of a better word) what we saw on the screen. We use the characters we saw as benchmarks, and it makes complete sense to do so. Your character may not be as strong in the Force as Yoda, but it's sometimes interesting to look and see what Yoda has in the way of Force skills and powers. Just about every franchised RPG I've seen has statted out the characters from that universe, as they help us all see how the stats, skills, and figures reconcile with what we saw on the screen. Many games make that a central part of what they do (like Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, which gives you scores of characters from the comics); the fans themselves spend countless hours devoting efforts to 'stat up' their movie counterparts.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
To me things like having to re-do an entire character sheet (by adding in an attribute that isn't already in the game) would be much more difficult than trying to replace something existing. Not that doing so is that big of a deal, but adding a new stat effectively makes all existing current character sheets obsolete (so that was part of my thought process to still add in a new attribute). It's no big deal, as it's not something I'm doing for my game anyway (though it is something I've considered).

Converting existing templates is actually pretty easy. If you are using one of the Force user templates, just total up their starting dice to get a Force Attribute. Anyone using any of the non-FS templates would have to sacrifice at least 1D pulled from his other attributes.

Quote:
We have used no house rules for our Miraluka character. His character sheet reads with all of the stuff from the D6 Holocron (which spells out the WEG sources their info in drawn from). I'm not sure where he got the idea of seeing through walls, but he showed me something (in print) at the table that looked like an official source. I'll have to try to find out what that was.

It's not a bad idea, really, as the Force would not be blocked by walls or other physical obstructions. It's just that the Miraluka description in the TOTJ book is really light on details. I'd love to see someone flesh it out a bit.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
[quote="crmcneillConverting existing templates is actually pretty easy. If you are using one of the Force user templates, just total up their starting dice to get a Force Attribute. Anyone using any of the non-FS templates would have to sacrifice at least 1D pulled from his other attributes.


Yeah, I already understand how to do it. [I'm not communicating what I'm trying to say very effectively]. I should post the character sheet I tend to use (or the Excel one a few of my players do), and it would make it clearer. I'm talking about the literal amount of columns and names on a piece of paper. I've got about a dozen different character sheets downloaded, and have a few I really like. Substituting one of the Attributes would be feasible, adding a new one would not be (without taking out something else, but all the other stuff on that single sheet is crucial).

It's no big deal. Like I said, though I've been tempted to go to a Force attribute, it's adding enough complexity (and our current system seems to be working well enough) that I think I'll keep things as is.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
[

Yeah, I already understand how to do it. [I'm not communicating what I'm trying to say very effectively]. I should post the character sheet I tend to use (or the Excel one a few of my players do), and it would make it clearer. I'm talking about the literal amount of columns and names on a piece of paper. I've got about a dozen different character sheets downloaded, and have a few I really like. Substituting one of the Attributes would be feasible, adding a new one would not be (without taking out something else, but all the other stuff on that single sheet is crucial)..


Instead of adding in with the stats, could you fit it in where you have the force skills?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Force skills are all on the second (back) page, and it would be wierd (for me anyway) to have an Attribute there, so far from all the others.

I could certainly do it, though. And if I ever end up changing up my Force stuff into an Attribute/Skill system I'd probably do that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
Well, the Force skills are all on the second (back) page, and it would be wierd (for me anyway) to have an Attribute there, so far from all the others.

I could certainly do it, though. And if I ever end up changing up my Force stuff into an Attribute/Skill system I'd probably do that.

I understand the desire to stick with a character sheet you are comfortable with, but to fold a Force attribute into an existing attribute would require a major rewrite of the attribute and skill system, far too much (IMO) just to accommodate a preferred template layout.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I'm okay with that. It was just a spur of the moment thought, not something I'd put a lot of consideration into. I was just throwing something out there to kick the tires on the concept, and I'm okay with it not being feasible or practical.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg, this might work for you if you want the Force attribute to represent non-FS heroes...

In broad strokes, what I'm thinking is that, while a character would need at least 1D to actually learn and use Force powers, having a 0D plus pips could represent whether a character is able to use Character points and Force points.
    0D = Character may earn CPs, but may only use them to improve skills between missions.
    0D+1 = Character may earn CPs, but may now use them in-game to boost skills rolls.
    0D+2 = Character may earn and use CPs and FPs as per the rules in the book.
    1D & up = Character is Force Sensitive, and may learn and use Force skills and powers.

    The cost to move up a pip would be 20CP, in line with the 2R&E rules for switching from non-FS to FS. Since most characters are already at the equivalent of 0D+2 anyway, it won't change much.

    Personally, I'm content with not allowing interim steps between 0D and 1D, so this is just a random thought.

I'm also thinking that characters who have dice in the Force attribute could pick 1 Sense power per D of Force Attribute, then use the attribute to roll those skills (Control powers might also be allowable on GM approval). Since these are powers the character learned on their own, it could potentially indicate natural talent in these areas, and thus reduced difficulty to use them once the character learns Force skills.

Finally, with regards to midichlorians, this special rule...
    Special Rule: Midichlorians
    Any player who wishes to know their character's midichlorian count will be warned not to ask again, or there will be consequences. If the player continues to ask, the GM shall impose a permanent -1D penalty to the Force Attribute of the player's character, with an additional -1D per incident. Penalties are cumulative, permanent and non-negotiable, with bonus penalties imposed for whining, as you gave them fair warning.

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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not comfortable with taking the ability to use CPs away from most of the (non-Force using) PCs.

What if we just played the the FP cap instead? In the RAW non-Force Sensitives are limited to 5 Fps or less, and any extra Fps get converted to CPs at a 5:1 ratio. So;

0D+1 = Character may have up to 6 FPs
0D+2 =Character may have up to 7 FPs
1D & up = Character is Force Sensitive, and may have any number of FPs. Starts with an extra FP.

Pretty simple, and doesn't change the RAW much. You like?

crmcneill wrote:

I'm also thinking that characters who have dice in the Force attribute could pick 1 Sense power per D of Force Attribute, then use the attribute to roll those skills (Control powers might also be allowable on GM approval). Since these are powers the character learned on their own, it could potentially indicate natural talent in these areas, and thus reduced difficulty to use them once the character learns Force skills.


I like the idea of being able to start with Force Powers. I'd suggest that the character's choices should be restricted to powers with difficulty ranges that he could make with a average roll.


crmcneill wrote:

Finally, with regards to midichlorians, this special rule...
    Special Rule: Midichlorians
    Any player who wishes to know their character's midichlorian count will be warned not to ask again, or there will be consequences. If the player continues to ask, the GM shall impose a permanent -1D penalty to the Force Attribute of the player's character, with an additional -1D per incident. Penalties are cumulative, permanent and non-negotiable, with bonus penalties imposed for whining, as you gave them fair warning.



Even nastier penalty: When asked the GM simply starts counting upwards, one midi-chlorian at a time, until he reaches the correct number, or until the players get sick of waiting and do something else. Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Pretty simple, and doesn't change the RAW much. You like?

Actually, my intent was that non-FS player characters would be equivalent to 0D+2, and would be pretty much just like the RAW. 0D and 0D+1 would be the realm of minor NPCs and the general masses. I myself am okay with allowing no interim steps between 0D and 1D, but I know you wanted a way to use the Force Attribute to differentiate between heroic and non-heroic characters who aren't Force Sensitive.

Quote:
I like the idea of being able to start with Force Powers. I'd suggest that the character's choices should be restricted to powers with difficulty ranges that he could make with a average roll.

I would rather just caution players during character creation and let them know that they could end up with a power they can't use because their attribute isn't high enough, then allow them to pick on their own. A character who picks a power beyond the scope of their attribute dice could potentially spend CP or FP to be able to use their power under special circumstances.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

I would rather just caution players during character creation and let them know that they could end up with a power they can't use because their attribute isn't high enough, then allow them to pick on their own. A character who picks a power beyond the scope of their attribute dice could potentially spend CP or FP to be able to use their power under special circumstances.


The thing is, that tends to hurt players who aren't that familiar with the Force rules. In my SW campaigns, most people who try playing Jedi end up taking things like Lightsaber Combat, which is worse that useless to most starting characters, even if they do manage to activate it, and they avoid those powers that they haven't seen in the films, like Magnify Senses, and Concentrate, that are quite useful to fledging Jedi. Most players get frustrated early on. They practically nerf their character to use the Force, and then can't.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
The thing is, that tends to hurt players who aren't that familiar with the Force rules.

And that is why you caution them, to make sure that they are aware of the potential consequences. If they are aware that they will only be able to use the power by spending CP or FP, then that is their decision to make. As a GM, I exercise veto power only to keep characters from being too powerful; if a player wishes to deliberately handicap their character for whatever reason, I'm okay with just making sure they are properly warned.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
And that is why you caution them, to make sure that they are aware of the potential consequences.


You've got to send me some players! Surprised
Mine usually nod thier head, say things like "yes" and "uh-huh" a lot, and then after assuring me that they understood what I just told them, ignore everything that I said, and just do what they wanted to do in the first place!

This is usually followed by a period where they try to use their cool Force powers, and fall flat of their face. Then they get frustrated and alternate between trying to figure out how to pull off the stuff they saw in the movies, and wondering if I tricked them somehow. This is usually accompanied by complaints that spotlight just how little of the initial conversation sunk in, such as, "but I only wanted to use a lightsaber!"

If they stick it out, they start to see signs of success at 3D, become competent around 5D, and finally are able to do what they had originally intended at 7D. But most don't, are are a little bitter to boot.


What sort of lifeforms exist in your star system?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a bad idea for all force users, actually. Granted, WEG says you can pick a new power every time you move up 1D (with the glut of available powers out there now, I've started using every pip), but how did you learn how to use the power if you can't roll high enough to use it on a regular basis (i.e. practice)?

As for the players, by "caution", I also mean including a disclaimer to the effect of, "you aren't going to be able to do what you are wanting to do with this character right away, so consider yourself warned; I will have no sympathy down the road if you start complaining about it."
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