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A Force attribute?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: A Force attribute? Reply with quote

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=141977#141977
garhkal wrote:
I think we should take that force attribute talk to a new thread for it.

I agree so here it is...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: A Force attribute? Reply with quote

crmcneill and others have mentioned making a Force attribute. I've already decided for my game to make the Force skills based on a Force attribute (an "extranormal" attribute like in D6 Space). Many of the specifics aren't worked out yet so I am definitely interested in more discussion on this topic. A few of my preliminary thought are...

I wanted to simplify the Force rules in my game to make them more based on other existing rules when possible. It seems intuitive from a D6 perspective to give the 3 Force skills an attribute instead of being free-floating skills. And a Force attribute would indeed explain how some film characters seem to be born with more Force ability without training and a power level beyond what their amount of training would indicate, as cr said in the thread about Luke destroying the Death Star with Luke possibly having 6D or 7D in a Force attribute. Film canon characters are not PCs so are not limited to only having 18D in attributes.

I never liked how Force characters starting with 2 Force skills automatically had 2 less attribute dice to allocate to their 6 normal attributes, and PCs starting with all 3 Force skills likewise started with 3 less attribute dice, which really makes your Force-character crappy at almost everything else. And the cost to start with a Force skill seems disproportionately high compared to the cost to learn them and gain them later after play begins. And Force skill cost attribute dice to have the first 1D, but then you can allocate skill dice to raise them above 1D. It just seems wonky.

A Force attribute would cost the same as any other attribute, regardless of how many of the 3 Force skills you started with. You could still have 17D in normal attributes just to get 1D in the Force attribute, but if you really wanted to start out more powerful you could have a starting value higher than 1D at the same cost attribute dice to allocate to other attributes. Then how many Force skill dice you have above your attribute depends on how many skill dice you allocate to them, like any other skills.

I am tentatively calling my Force attribute "Metaphysical" (short for "Metaphysical Aptitude" in the spirit of the full names of MEC and TEC, and inspired by D6 Space's extranormal attribute called "Metaphysics".). This clearly differentiate it from the Force Points mechanic. Metaphysical is another attribute on my character sheet, so having 0D in it means the character is not Force-sensitive, and having 1D or more means they are. There is no longer a need for a Force-sensitive Yes or No designation. And if you have 0D in Metaphysical, any normal skills under that which default to the attribute would also be 0D so you wouldn't be able to use that Force skill.

Since normal skills default to the attribute but not all Force-sensitive characters have all three Force skills, I thought of using the existing mechanic of Advanced skills to represent that since they do not default to any attribute. However, it doesn't seem right within the framework of D6 for all three Force skills to be advanced skills, so if at least one skill is going to come with having a die or dice in the Metaphysical attribute, which one? According to RAW, the usual first skill learned is Control, but based on the fact that the designation of being a Force-user is Force-Sensitive Yes, I feel it should be Sense. So right now I'm thinking of making Sense the Force skill that defaults to the attribute, while Control and Alter have to be learned like advanced skills before they can be used and thus start at 1D when you learn them instead of the Force attribute value.

I've also considered the idea of making Force powers be skill specializations of Force skills, but that runs into a couple problems. Based on the existing skill mechanic, you would suddenly have access to all Force powers for that skill which seems a bit much all at once. And if you specialized, then any later raising of the base skill means you wasted points on specializing, just like with any skills. And what about powers that use multiple skills? So then I thought, what if all the Force Powers are also advanced skills with prerequisites being whichever Force skills are needed for that power, plus whatever other Force powers are needed, which also brings the prerequisite powers from RAW into it. But then it gets more complicated when considering what all dice do you roll in skill/power attempts with multiple layers of advanced skills.

But then there is also the consideration of cost to improve skills (and possibly skill specializations). Advanced skills only start at 1D but have double the cost to raise. Should raising the advanced Force skills of a Force attribute use normal advanced skill rules? So double the cost with a teacher, and which would make it quadruple without? But then if Sense is a normal skill while Control and Alter aren't, that would mean Sense is twice as easy to improve than Control and Alter at the same die values.

I started to get a headache the last time I tried to work this out, so then I started thinking it would probably be easier to keep Force powers as powers (instead of powers being Force skill specializations or their own advanced skills), but I still want to have the three Force skills under a Force attribute. At the moment I'm still leaning towards Force-sensitive characters having Sense default to the attribute but Control and Alter being advanced skills, despite that making Control and Alter cost double the points of Sense to improve. Since powers can only be used when the Force-using characters learn them, the GM still controls how easy the access is to training from someone who has the higher skill level and knows the power.

I've also thought about simplifying the Force power rolls and even consolidating like powers into fewer more general powers with multiple uses, but that would seem to be another thread.

Anyway, thoughts on a Force attribute and how it might work?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would you give as a racial min/max for a force attribute? Would there even BE one?

How would you convert existing characters (whether PC or NPC) to that attribute way of doing things?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've clearly put a lot more thought into this than I have. A few thoughts...

As far as character creation, attribute maximums and minimums would be appropriate (the same as all the other attributes), with 0D as the minimum for all species, save any that may be default Force Sensitive.

I'm okay with the attribute being called Force or Force Sensitive, as the distinction between the two is pretty clear to me.

I'm okay with the three standard Force skills staying as standard skills rather than Advanced. I agree that Sense would likely be the one the untrained character is most likely to experience first, at an instinctive level. Perhaps for untrained Force use, a character can expend a Character Point and be allowed to use a single Sense skill as normal...

I've considered the possibility of an Force Attribute advanced skill based off of specific training or doctrine. For now, I'd call the skill category Lore, with each type being a separate Advanced Skill, such as Jedi Lore or Sith Lore, and so on and so forth. Having dice in a specific facet of Force User Lore would apply as a bonus to Force abilities that are specific to that doctrine.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
What would you give as a racial min/max for a force attribute? Would there even BE one?


0D/3D or 0D/4D, excepting special circumstances. In conjunction with the Advantage / Disadvantage list you are working on, a character could conceivably purchase additional sensitivity (i.e. above and beyond the normal attribute maximum) as an advantage.

Quote:
How would you convert existing characters (whether PC or NPC) to that attribute way of doing things?


One-time offer to your PCs that they can start at 1D or spend additional CPs to boost their attribute higher?
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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gavin storm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
What would you give as a racial min/max for a force attribute? Would there even BE one?

How would you convert existing characters (whether PC or NPC) to that attribute way of doing things?


Otherr places i've simmed in, have attached an upper lower figure to the ramk. Not overly familiar with the system here to know what jedi ranking system you use.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also been thinking of adding a Force attribute.

I believe that every living creature should have at least some rating, since it is alive.

For Humans I assume that they have 1D in the attribute, since most have it, but aren't very strong with it. I'd like to give them 2D, but then I might have to adjust the power difficulties. Force Sensitive characters start off at 2D. I'd place the human max at either 3D or 4D. Basically a starting character gets 1D in Force per Force Point they have.

For aliens it a little more complicated. They get the same ranges as humans unless there is something in the racial description that would suggest a different range.

I am also tending to letting characters use their Force attribute to resist force skills instead of using PER.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How would you convert existing characters (whether PC or NPC) to that attribute way of doing things?

I personally wouldn't convert existing characters, but I'm not in the middle of a campaign right now so I don't have to worry about it.

garhkal wrote:
What would you give as a racial min/max for a force attribute? Would there even BE one?


Good call. I hadn't even thought about that. I agree with crmcneill that there should be a racial min and max for each species. (And this range is only for PCs and most NPCs. You don't have to worry about special case NPCs like the Skywalkers because they are rare exceptions and don't have to conform to the rules we are making for the game.)

I'd have to say that 0D-3D would be a typical Force attribute species range for species capable of being Force sensitive. 3D captures the effect of the original mechanic where Force-using PCs starting with all three Force skills would only have 15D for the other attributes. 3D is starting out pretty powerful in Force ability considering that you could raise the Force skills up to 2D above that during character creation (giving 5D in s starting Force skill), so I don't think the Force attribute max should really be any higher than 3D for most species. If an entire species is Force sensitive, I would give them nothing higher than a 1D min but maybe a 4D max.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
You've clearly put a lot more thought into this than I have. A few thoughts...

I'm okay with the three standard Force skills staying as standard skills rather than Advanced. I agree that Sense would likely be the one the untrained character is most likely to experience first, at an instinctive level. Perhaps for untrained Force use, a character can expend a Character Point and be allowed to use a single Sense skill as normal...

So, you're saying the Force skills would be normal skills with respect to cost of advancement, but they each can still only be used when learned, like the current Force skills (and advanced skills)? And templates could still start with one, two or three of the Force skills like they do now?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
For Humans I assume that they have 1D in the attribute, since most have it, but aren't very strong with it. I'd like to give them 2D, but then I might have to adjust the power difficulties.


But that basically makes everybody Force Sensitive, which isn't the case. The idea behind the Force Attribute is measuring an individual's innate ability to consciously control the Force. A character with a 0D Force attribute still has access to instinctive Force use in the form of CPs and FPs.

Quote:
I am also tending to letting characters use their Force attribute to resist force skills instead of using PER.

That seems fair, at least on first blush. Would you be able to stack your Force attribute with Per to resist?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
So, you're saying the Force skills would be normal skills with respect to cost of advancement, but they each can still only be used when learned, like the current Force skills (and advanced skills)? And templates could still start with one, two or three of the Force skills like they do now?

Yes
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as I started reading this thread, I was thinking "Sense should be the default skill one gets" (so I completely agree it should be the first/initial one).

I don't think making them advance at the rate of Advanced Skills is the way to go, personally. The GM can already control/slow down what a Jedi character learns by limiting what their teacher (or a holocron) has available for them.

If I were starting a brand new campaign I'd probably make a new Attribute called "The Force" and let Jedi characters allocate some of their starting 18D into it.

I don't subscribe to the view that the Skywalkers should play by any different rules than other PCs or NPCs. The main characters in the published WEG books all have 18D in attributes, and I think one could adjust things to keep them with very much the same "feel", even if a Force attribute were added in (perhaps in this case characters like Luke and Obi-Wan would require more than 18D in total attributes, but they'd probably lose a few of their skills to balance things out).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
For Humans I assume that they have 1D in the attribute, since most have it, but aren't very strong with it. I'd like to give them 2D, but then I might have to adjust the power difficulties.


But that basically makes everybody Force Sensitive, which isn't the case. The idea behind the Force Attribute is measuring an individual's innate ability to consciously control the Force. A character with a 0D Force attribute still has access to instinctive Force use in the form of CPs and FPs.

I completely agree. Now if you wanted your SWU to be one in which most everyone has the ability to use the Force, you are free to do that but that would be radically different than what is in the films, the EU and specifically WEG SW R&E. That vast majority of sentient beings in the Star Wars galaxy do not have Force powers. As cr said, CPs and FPs represent the more common ability that sentients have to access the Force - You do not need to be Force-sensitive to use those. I agree that having a Force attribute of 0D means you can have CPs and FPs but no access to Sense, Control and Alter abilities.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
]

But that basically makes everybody Force Sensitive, which isn't the case.


No it doesn't. it just means that every living thing is connected to the Force -which it should be. Note that I'm not letting characters get any Force skills or powers just because they have 1D in the Force. That's what training is for.

Frankly, I don't believe in "Force Senstive" anyway. There is nothing in the films about it. Some characters are noted for being "strong with the Force".


Quote:

The idea behind the Force Attribute is measuring an individual's innate ability to consciously control the Force.


That might be your idea behind a Force attribute. My idea is to measure the character's strength in the Force, and all living beings should possess some rating in the Force, even if it is only 1 pip.


Quote:

A character with a 0D Force attribute still has access to instinctive Force use in the form of CPs and FPs.

If you want to run it that way. I don't. I think 0D in Force should be limited to droids and explains why they can't use the Force.

Quote:

That seems fair, at least on first blush. Would you be able to stack your Force attribute with Per to resist?



No. Otherwise Jedi become too powerful to affect each other with the Force, since everything else being about equal they will have an extra 2D to their resistance (their PER score) added to the base difficulty plus the modifiers for proximity/relationship, etc.[/i]
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Quote:
The bar for absurdity is already set pretty low when we have a little rubber puppet moving a space ship with his mind. Smile


Is that supposed to be Yoda or Luke? Wink
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